The Way Out Is In / Brother Phap Huu and Jo Confino Answer Questions from Listeners (Episode #39)

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Welcome, dear listeners, to this latest episode of the podcast series The Way Out Is In.

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I am Jo Confino, working at the intersection of personal transformation and systems evolution.

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And I am Brother Phap Huu, a Zen Buddhist monk, a student of Zen Master Thich Nhat Hanh in the tradition of Plum Village.

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And today, brother, we are going to democratize this podcast because normally we just choose, normally on the day or the day before… What should we talk about today? But we are following another Plum Village tradition, which is the question and answer session, where we get to ask our listeners what is it that’s on their mind and how can we support them very directly.

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The way out is in.

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Welcome back, everyone. I am Jo Confino.

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And I am Brother Phap Huu.

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And Phap Huu, today we are going to do a question and answer session and this isn’t out of the blue because actually this has been a real tradition of Plum Village. So do you want to just give us a bit of a background as to why question and answers?

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So in the Zen tradition, we always have an opportunity to ask our teacher or our mentor a question that has to do with our daily practice, our daily life. Sometimes we may be practicing and we meet an obstacle and we need some clarity or we just need another perspective. So to help us open our minds. And in Plum Village, every retreat that we offer, our teacher always has a day called question and answers. So he allows people to come up one by one to ask the questions from the heart. So Thay always says a good question doesn’t have to be long. And a good question has to do with your suffering, your practice, and your growth as a person. And we try not to be so intellectual in this because we’re not debating about philosophy, but it’s a question of the practice.

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One of my favorites that always sticks in my mind was… Because what was sometimes the most profound questions came from the children. And I always remember one of the children asking Thay sort of, why do monastics shave their hair? And Thay looked at him very intently and said, to save on the shampoo. The kid was really happy because actually that was a much more fun answer than probably the real answer.

00:03:03

Yeah, yeah.

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So, brother, what I’m going to do is we did a call-out on Instagram just saying, you know, what’s on your mind? What would you like to ask? So I’ve got a list of questions here. You haven’t studied them. So this is going to be sort of on the hoof, as they say. So I’m going to ask you a couple just to warm you up, brother. Get you in the mood. So, are you ready?

00:03:24

I’m ready.

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Okay, here we go. First one. Dear brothers, one question is always on my mind for years. Why is it that monks don’t treat their body well and eat healthily? Fried things or cheese are often served. I really don’t understand it, but no one answers this question. Fried food and cheese, brother, is this true?

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Which monastery is this friend referring to? Because in Upper Hamlet we don’t have fried food. Sometimes I crave French fries and nobody would make French fries for the community. So I think it seems like it’s talking about another tradition because in Plum Village, all of the food that we serve is vegan. So we don’t have cheese. Fried food is a delicacy. So I think for those he’s referring to, he must have been at a temple or a monastery or he or she who asked this question, and probably saw a lot of fried food. But, you know, if you really have a question, you have to go directly to the monastic of that community and just ask, hey, what’s, what’s up with all the fried food? Are we taking good care of our body? Do we know how much fried food we are taking in and how that will impact our daily life? But for us here, we don’t have enough fried food. From time to time it’s good to treat yourself, not to be too rigid on our own diets. But here, in Plum Village, we do have a motto which is, healthy organic food. It’s not always 100%, sometimes things are too expensive, but in the recent ten years or so, we have Happy Farms that we’ve been growing a lot of our own vegetables. And when it comes to food, we do always have to consider we have protein for the community, we have enough greens, enough grains. So we do kind of have a quick checklist, but also not to be so attached to that also is important. Like we should have the mentality to be healthy and we know that whatever we intake has an effect on our body and mind. But from time to time, you know, we do have to take care of our happiness, which sometimes is like a cookie of childhood. And for some it’s like a dessert. Right? It is a vegan brownie or something like that. So we do try not to be so rigid also in our diet. So we have a middle way.

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And also, brother, I think it is also true there is a bit of a hierarchy in Plum Village in terms of food, because…

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What does that mean?

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Well, what that means is that New Hamlet serves, the nunnery of New Hamlet, serves, I think, the best food. Then I think Lower Hamlet, the other nunnery, comes in second and sort of trailing in slightly behind are the monks of Upper Hamlet, brother. Especially when it comes to the evening meal, which is sometimes sort of leftovers, which of course is wonderful because it uses all the food. But I think that the monks definitely could learn a few tricks from the sisters. Anyway, let’s not get stuck on that point.

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Tread carefully, Jo. You are in the Upper Hamlet.

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I know. That’s lunch gone for me. And brother, the second one, very quick one. But what is your favorite vegan meal served in Plum Village?

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I love Vietnamese food. We have a traditional sweet and sour soup from the southern province of Vietnam, so it’s like, it’s a lot of greens, they have pineapple in there, and it’s also using tamarind. So like there is like sweet and sour and that hits the spot for me.

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Yeah, me too. Good Vietnamese soup.

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Yeah.

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You can’t beat it.

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Yeah.

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Good, thank you. So last one on the sort of more lighthearted.

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There we go.

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Is: Do zen monks intentionally engage in any forms of entertainment or is life a big stage as we, lay people, are your entertainment?

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Well, sometimes…

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It’s like watching lay people, it’s like going to the zoo and watching the lay people.

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You know what? Sometimes the monastics, ourself, are entertainment.

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I live in a… We live in a very diverse community in Plum Village, many nationalities, many different cultures. So we get to see a lot. So we do watch movies and we do watch documentaries. We are selective in our consumption. So normally, like we would have a monastic retreat and a treat for the community would be to do a cinema night. So it is like the lazy evening leading to the lazy day. So we would choose films that are nourishing for the community. And there are many good films out there that are entertaining as well as educational. And it touches the heart. And one fun fact is we love sport here. So the brothers and sisters, we love to watch the World Cup when it comes around every four years. And our teacher Thay also would come and join us in the finals for a few minutes, and he would come to watch us. He would watch the monastics to see our excitement, to see where we’re leaning towards. Because if we’re to practice nondiscrimination, we should be there just to support both teams. But we are still human, we are still practicing, we do have bias, especially if it’s our own national country that is in the World Cup, especially in the finals we get very emotionally involved. And we have a very sweet brother, Brother Phap […] and he’s a wonderful Dharma teacher, mentor for so many of us and he loves football. And whenever it comes to the World Cup, he always sits at the bell. So when the energy is too exciting, he will invite the bell for all of us to just come back to our breath. Or when they say the penalties, he would make a joke and… Everybody come back to your breathing. And you just hear everyone laugh and then we get intense again. So we do have these joyful moments in the community.

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And, brother, let’s not forget that you are a bit of a rap star in Plum Village. So I mean, music also is a big thing here. There’s some extraordinarily accomplished classical and other musicians here. And, you know, singing is a big tradition in Plum Village. And you are a rapper, brother. Come on, fess up.

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Yeah, I do love rapping. I do love to offer songs. We do have a tradition in Plum Village to offer music in the direction of the Dharma. So a lot of Thay’s poetry has been put into music by our own monastic brothers and sisters. And we would write raps to them or we would have artists to help us in completing the song.

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Great. Okay, so that’s the fun over, brother. And you warmed up enough?

00:11:14

Yes, sir.

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So let’s slowly head into other waters. So here’s one. I’m interested in how monks and nuns keep being mindful while taking care of many children during the summer retreat. I find it difficult to do this with my four children aged between 2 to 7. There’s always something going on, some argument, crying or need. Also, rest is rare. What do you recommend to staying mindful, anyway? Thank you. Double exclamation mark. Because, of course, brother, this is, of course, the best questions are questions that are relevant to more than just the person asking the question. And, you know, it is very, very difficult to stay patient and centered with young children when with all the manic behaviors going on, the busyness of food preparation and nappies, if they’re very young, or entertainment or taking them to this… You know, it can fill people’s lives and people can often sort of feel overwhelmed. So how do you work with the children in the summer retreat to… When they’re manic, when they’re argumentative, etc., etc., where they’re throwing a tantrum, and how can that be relevant to other people?

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I’m going to share my part. And then I think I want to come back to you because you’re a father, too. So it’s better to ask parents that than monastics because we only have them for a month a year, which is a very different time, it’s a very different experience. But I have been in the children program for a few years, in my younger years as a monk. I think the first thing we have to understand is mindfulness it doesn’t particularly mean sitting still, being calm, being quiet, walking slowly. Mindfulness is the energy of awareness, it’s to know what is happening inside of us and around us and how to have mindful action to take care of the situation. So whenever I’m with the children, I have to shift gear, I have to tap into their energy and tap into who they are. And that is your practice. Your mindfulness is the mindfulness of the children. So remove your expectation that they have to sit in stillness. They have to eat quietly, they have to drink tea, you know, like give them juice, give them soda. Be flexible and then learn to… What I learned from them is that they are actually very mindful already, children. Especially the young ones, and they are so curious and that curiosity can become your own energy. You say, Oh, what is that child so curious about? Tune into their energy, tune into their eyes what they are curious about, and then from their lead and be one with them. And I think the practice that I always come back to is just being present for them and then being open. Don’t have expectation because the more expectations you have then you want them to be a particular way. But of course that doesn’t mean you can’t guide them, you can offer them insight, input. And I see that whenever I’m very present for the children, then the children also become more attentive to you because they also learn by experience, by what they see in front of them. Sometimes your bodily action has a bigger impact than what you say, and then the practice always comes back to… I always come back to like if I get upset at a child, if I am angry, is to see how do I want to share something to the child, but not be aggressive and not be angry and just be reminded of how you wanted to be taught when you were a child. Right? So sometimes I know, like I remember growing up and saying, I never want to yell like the way my dad yelled at me, for example. And then in that particular moment, your practice is recognizing are you becoming the father, the mother that you didn’t want to become? So they are a mirror, they are a reflection. So I see that the children are our practice. They are already quite mindful in their daily activity. Remove a little bit of our expectations, our idea of being still, and then, on the other hand, is having space and time to make it really your recharge moment. Right? Like, let’s say you are preparing food for your child. You know, for us, meditation is everyday life, it doesn’t particularly mean sitting on a cushion, closing our eyes, following our breath. But while you are folding the clothes of your child, that can be a practice. You can do it with mindfulness. You can also come back to your body in that moment. You can rest while you are doing. It is a very advanced practice, I have to say. And then what I realize is that having a community is so important. And I wish that our culture and society can come back to community and supporting each other in caring for each other’s children, as well as having the trust be developed. And I see that how we are able to take care of hundreds of kids during the summer is having a team that supports each other and know how to tap in when we see our brother or sister, our colleagues, our volunteers are being overwhelmed. And we just naturally say, let me take care of this moment. And I feel today the individualism is so strong. And I think we also don’t allow children to have experience with people outside of their immediate family. And I say this, of course, we have to create a safe environment, a safe community. But I see that the community aspect has been lost a lot. So I think one of the magic in our retreat is that there’s that community sense and even the children, they feel safe.

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Great. Thank you, brother, so much for that. And, you know, I recognize that when my family with my two kids, we moved out of London to rural Sussex, it was a real transformation in our lives because the children were much more part of the community. But also, as you say, they felt safe, they were in the countryside. They were able to have a… to have much more freedom but within a safe border. And I think one of the things people are always looking for is sort of space, you know, whether you’re a kid or not, everyone needs space. So I think the more we try to control our kids, or coerce them, or have our secret wish for that we want them to be a lawyer or a doctor or that we live vicariously through their success, that if they learn to play the violin it through, that shows we’re good people, I think is be very aware of our expectations. I know that… I think one of the problems, only age has changed these days, in terms of age people have kids, but I had kids quite young and I wish, in a sense, life, of course, was the other way round that we came into life being wise and then grew less wise over time. Because actually I realized looking back, that I wasn’t really very aware of myself when I had kids. And I think, you know, there’s that phrase, you know, oh, kids, they really know how to press my buttons.

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Right.

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As though is the kid’s problem, whereas actually they’re my buttons. So I think one of the things that’s most helpful when we’re with our kids is that if they’re pressing our buttons, is to recognize they are our buttons and to look at what is it they’re pressing and to take responsibility rather than blaming the kids. And I think one thing, brother, in one of the actually the climate leaders retreat over the summer, people were, some of the participants were saying, well, actually, when I’m with my kids, I’m actually thinking of a work project I’ve got to do or thinking of other things I want to do. And a lot of people made a commitment at the end that when they’re with their kids to really, I know you’ve mentioned this already, to be present with their kids, to be fully, give them your full attention. Because if you’re giving someone your full attention, you’re more likely to get that back. Whereas actually, if you’re not present and you’re not really listening, then actually your kids will know that and they’ll start to lose that sort of sense of respect or if I come to you, I’m going to be listened to. And, actually, what we all crave for is to be listened to.

00:21:36

Okay, brother, next. And we’ve got a couple of questions dealing with death and grief. So the first question actually comes from a very old friend of mine who I haven’t spoken to for years, but I saw she’d put this question in the chat. She said, My darling husband died last month and I’m struggling to cope with it all. And I think there’s so much, of course, wrapped up in that. And then the other question that’s related says, I understand the nature of impermanence and feel my father in me, all I do and all of nature. Yet, even before he has passed, I grieve deeply, feeling such sadness. Not sure what my question is. How does belief become faith maybe? So brother, I mean, both those questions are someone who’s lost someone, someone who fears losing someone. But the question is, in a sense, the same, isn’t it? Which is that when we lose someone or fear losing someone close to us, we feel bereft, we feel lost, we feel that that person has gone forever and that our lives are empty without them. And of course, Thay’s teachings are extremely relevant in helping people to deal with this sense of loss and to recognize that actually those in us, or those we love are still present in us. But brother, do you want to, with these two people, just help them to understand how do you cope with it all?

00:23:14

We have to be mindful of our grief. Grief is an expression of also vulnerability. And what I’ve learned from the passing of my own teacher is that vulnerability and grief is also an expression of love. We feel loss, and we feel empty, and we feel such sadness is because there was true love in that relationship. So first, I want to point out that the sadness is also coating the love that we have and to honor that love. And that means that that connection was very real for us. And to allow ourselves to feel sad is important. It’s just the practice of mindfulness. Like whenever we encourage people to recognize the goodness inside of them, the freshness that is alive in them is also so important to recognize the sadness that we’re feeling and honor it and not suppress it. And then to hold it instead of with intense sorrow, to remember all of the wonderful experience that we’ve had with that person. And that can become a process of letting go. When we lose someone, it’s going to take time for us to see them in us, even though intellectually we have the Buddha’s insight of Interbeing, which is like we are their continuation because they were so connected to us that we carry their elements in us, their experience that they’ve offered to us, our experience that we had with them. We continue to carry that in us. But sometimes it takes it just takes time to really feel and see them in our daily life. But don’t be too hard on oneself in pushing ourself to get over this. Because I know that’s the norm mentality is like we have one day to mourn and then we’re done. And that is so not reality like that. That’s just an idea that we have created. But the reality is that we need time to heal, we need time to honor, to be mindful of the loss. And in our tradition, we have an altar in order to honor that person. And for our friends who have lost someone, I would like to introduce this. It’s a beautiful way of remembering them and expressing our love, because grief is a way of showing that we want to express our love. And every day, before sitting meditation in our meditation halls in Plum Village, a monk or a nun would light an incense and place it at Thay’s picture. And that is a way of just remembering. And in that moment of lighting that incense, or we can light a candle. Right? We can be remembered of all of the wonderful experience that we’ve had. We can be grateful for the teachings that we’ve received. And then we can also see that because we are alive, they continue through us. So we embrace the three times in that very moment: the past, the present, and the moving forward, which is the future. So we would have this practice in order to see that even though they’re not here, they are still a part of our life. And then you would want to select a very beautiful image of that person and create a table, have their picture there. And that can be a practice that can support you in grieving. So that is something very practical that we do. And we would also put a flower that our loved one really loved, like we’re entering into autumn here in Plum Village, and Thay love chrysanthemums. So I’m sure once that’s available, we are going to buy a pot and put on Thay’s altar as a way to express our love. So grief is love. So to see it, to see the sadness as not a weakness, but an expression. And day by day, as we move forward, there’s going to be moments when you’re just going to remember them. And if you have such emotions that are going to manifest, be mindful of it. Let it manifest and embrace it. And then tell yourself, because I’m alive, I will let them now see through my eyes. Let them eat through my mouth, my taste is their taste. And, you know, very recently, Sister Chan Khong just came back to Plum Village. And this is her first Rains Retreat after 2014, after Thay’s stroke. And I’m very mindful that it’s much harder for Sister Chan Khong than most of us, because her experience with Thay goes so deep and the profound relationship that they had through the peace activists work that they’ve done through the war. And then she followed Thay to the U.S.. And then during the refugee crisis, being with Thay in Singapore, renting boats to rescue people, and then the creation of Plum Village, and all of this. So everywhere that Sister Chan Khong walks in Plum Village reminds her of Thay. And to ask for support when you need. And we were in a day of mindfulness in Lower Hamlet and Sister Chan Khong was definitely feeling a lot of emotion. And what she did was she opened herself and allow others to help. She said, My brothers and sisters, and she was speaking to the monastics, she said, I missed Thay so much, can you help me embrace this moment? And it was such a tender moment and Sister Chan Khong cried. And I saw others holding her hands. And sometimes is not to say anything and just to feel it and allow that to be. And you have the process, we call that transformation. And so to honor it like that.

00:30:46

Beautifully said, brother. And it’s, you know, to those, to the person who’s asked question about the fear of losing somebody precious and, you know, there’s something around turning that round to the preciousness of time, isn’t it?

00:31:01

Yeah.

00:31:01

That actually, you know, we are all going to lose. I mean, there’s the five remembrances which is sort of spoken of every, I think every day, and the monastics are asks us to chant that, which is, you know, we have the nature to grow old, we have the nature to be sick, we have the nature to die, we have the nature to be separated from everyone and everything that’s precious to us. And all we can stand on is our actions and thoughts and speech. So, you know, if we know that time is running out, that is the time to actually recognize how precious things are and to make every moment count.

00:31:39

Exactly.

00:31:40

Rather than fear it, embrace it, because it comes to us all. And I think this is so difficult in our Western society and it’s different in Vietnam, but in a lot of Western societies, this idea that we’re going to live forever and then suddenly death becomes this sort of shock. Whereas actually if we recognize, and I love this in the teachings about this continuation, as you’ve talked about, that actually our life doesn’t end when life ends, that the people we love are still in us, that their actions in their life, their kindness, what they’ve developed, what they’ve built, what they’ve cared about are still with us. And to recognize that it doesn’t end and it continues and the reverberations of one person’s life go forward in so many ways. And we can see and embrace that.

00:32:28

Yeah, this was my mantra after Thay’s stroke and taking care of Thay was present moment, precious moment.

00:32:37

So a couple of questions, which I think also speak to what a lot of people find difficult is the sense of, you know, where in Buddhist philosophy there’s a sense of interbeing, we’re in everybody, everyone is in us, that actually we shouldn’t discriminate. And that can be very difficult for people because especially when it comes to difficulties or difficult relationships or people who have faced difficult times, is how do you sort of practice this idea of interbeing, we’re all the same and we should love and be compassionate. And then also, how do we cope with people we find difficult? So I’m just going to read out a couple of questions that deal with that, brother, because I think it’s an important topic. So the first one is: How can I open my heart to everyone? I observed in myself that whenever I see someone who is quite different from me, for example, maybe they have some difficulties or that they look unfriendly, angry, etc.. I close my heart right away and don’t want to talk to them. I think that is just the way that I want to protect myself from what does not nourish me. But I think like, how can I help other people who are suffering? And then another one: How do you not harbor any negativity towards people whose views and actions are built upon making others suffer? And there’s one other, brother, which I think is very relevant. Can I ask, how do you advise practicing forgiveness when you have been badly hurt? So I think all those all those questions in a sense are around the same topic as how can we be compassionate and forgiving and be open to people when actually there’s also a need to protect ourselves?

00:34:27

When I hear this question, I see myself in it too. I think the aspiration to love all is like our ultimate aspiration. But when we land to our two feet and our present moment, we can identify our limits also. And we should honor our capacity. So in the in our training as a monastic, we always say, be mindful of your capacity. How much can you love? How much can you handle suffering? And how much are you ready to face that difficulty? And it’s not about neglecting, but it’s like identifying and then making sure that we are developing our stability to continue to generate the energy of love and compassion. So the beauty in all of these question was I hear the aspiration to love. Let’s focus there right now. When I hear that we know that love, there’s four elements in love, that is loving kindness, having a kind heart, compassion. Compassion is a very powerful energy. But for us to have compassion, we have to have understanding. So we have to see the person suffering and have understanding to why they behave in such a way, even though it is so, so bitter. But when you recognize that their whole life, they’ve never been loved, their whole life they may have been bullied, their whole life they have only been taught how to hate. So suddenly when you have that understanding, your mind has a cultivation of, Oh, that’s why they’re like that. And you start to have some understanding. Then your heart has a nectar of compassion, and you can see that they are not just their words or their action, but they are what they have experience. And then the other element is joy, right? If they are so angry and so is because they have no joy in their life. So you can be compassionate about that. And the last element of true love is developing our inclusiveness. That’s a really hard one, but we have that seed in us. And so what I want to focus on and share towards this answer is sometimes we just have to accept that we don’t have the ability to love that person yet, but we’re on the path to growing our love. At the beginning our heart may only be able to accept so much, but the more we practice, the more understanding we have, understanding ourselves and understanding others, our love will grow and our capacity will grow. And we call this the fruit of the practice. So we hear the teachings of interbeing and love, and we’re like, yes, I’m going to be exactly that energy. But then once you go out and you meet a situation and you are exactly the opposite of what you want to be, smile to that and then say, Ah, I still have to grow in my practice. I have to grow in my understanding. And the Buddha gives this image of this teaching of like at the beginning, our heart may be just like a little cup of water, and if you put salt in it, you can taste the salt right away. But the more you love your love is like a great river ocean. No matter how much salt is put in, you will never become salty. But you’re able to see and to recognize and just to embrace. And sometimes we have to see that the person we want to help, they’re not yet there. And sometimes they’re not willing to be helped also. And so our practice is not to fix everyone, but our practice is to learn to love oneself and then love others. And maybe one day that person will recognize that every time they were a particular way, but our way of still caring for them and embracing them, will wake them up and say, how did you do that? Why were you so kind to me? And every moment that I was so bitter. And so our action can also be a mirror to them. My dharma name means Dharma Friend. And friendship is also, is talked about kindness, karuna. And mitra. Mitra is love. And in friendship there has to be love. And I was very ambitious to be everyone’s friend, and I realized that not everybody wants to be my friend. And sometimes that is the reality. And you also have to accept that. And I remember one time, in one of my relationship with a brother, at the beginning was very beautiful. And then one day he just didn’t like me. And every time I entered into the room, he would leave. And we would sit in the circle, he would not look at me. And I was like, Wow, what happened? And honestly, like I did so many meditations, I went back a few weeks, a few months, a few years, and I just couldn’t understand what happened. And to today, honestly, I still don’t know. But our relationship has developed and I am able to say hello and we’re able to have a conversation. But there’s still a part of me where I’m still finding the courage to ask him, Hey, what happened back then? And maybe my only sense is that when I became abbott, I think I shifted a little bit and maybe what I represented and maybe it was power was something that didn’t resonate with him and he didn’t want to be associated to me. And that’s just life sometimes. Like, sometimes you just have to accept it. And I still… The practice at that moment for me was not to hate him because he doesn’t like me, but it’s to still see him as a wonderful person. There’s a very wonderful sutra which was like it still is my compass in relationship. It is the Five Ways of Putting an End to Anger. So please, you can find this on our website, you can find us in the Buddhist Sutras. And it’s from Sariputra, one of the Buddha’s most senior students. And it’s very simple, but it goes like this, something like this, when some… If you’re angry with someone and it’s because his words are not kind, but his actions are still kind, and in his heart there is still kindness, pay more attention to his kind action and his heart because he’s still unmindful of his speech. And if you pay attention to his other goodness, your hatred, your heart won’t become so bitter towards that person and you still are able to embrace. And then another example is if his words, if his actions are like kind, but then his heart is kind, and his speech is kind, then you pay attention to that. So in the sutra, is like, you still, we still know that all of us, we have our goodness and our bad habits. And then the last one, which is like, if they have no, if their hearts are not kind, their actions are not kind, and their speech is not kind, if anything, we should be more compassionate, we should pity because nobody helps them, and they have no friends, or all their friends are not true friends. Because if you behave in such way and nobody is telling you, then you’re very unfortunate. Nobody is showing you how to love. And if they are lucky, someone will be courageous and compassionate enough to say, Hey, you suffer and you make a lot of people suffer. Are you aware of that? And do you want to transform? Do you want to change? Are you lonely? And maybe we can be that person to someone who is suffering immensely. So recognized your capacity of love. Know that love is organic and it can grow. It’s an energy that will continue to grow through our own development of our understanding. And sometimes just know your limits. When you’re very tired, your capacity of love is less, so you start… In the practice of mindfulness, you start to know your own habits, know when to step out, when to not engage, when to engage, and so on. And not have the idea that we have to be embracing and accepting all at the same time. Our love is like the Northern Star, and we want to walk towards there. And the more we walk towards that path, we are embarking on the path of a Bodhisattva to love all beings. Yeah.

00:45:11

Brother, wow, there’s so much in that answer, so thank you. And I just want to sort of go and tease out just a couple of things, because, and give it just another sort of dimension, especially to that one about capacity, because I think what often happens is that people think they should be more compassionate. And then if they find that unable in that moment to be compassionate, they use that to berate themselves and beat themselves up to say, Oh, I’m no good, I’m a bad person. So that capacity is… When you recognize your capacity and you say smile to it, and I just want to highlight that point about, you know, smiling to your capacity means recognizing where you are, not blaming yourself or feeling that you’re a bad person because otherwise you use that actually to self-attack yourself and actually use that to beat yourself with the stick rather than the other person. And I remember when I was living in the States and Donald Trump had become president and he was doing all what he was doing. And people said, well, you know, you need to learn to love him and appreciate, you know, he’s a narcissist and he’s obviously had a terrible childhood and all that. And that was all true. But it is really, really hard when you see people who are doing such, what you consider to be to do great harm in the world, to really, even when you know the circumstances, to recognize that it is hard. It’s not just saying, Oh, yes, and, you know, I’m going to love him and I’m going to forgive him for everything. And it’s all good. It’s like we find compassionate, but it we also have to recognize the harm that is being done.

00:46:49

And that is love too.

00:46:50

And that is love too. And I think especially for people, if they’re in danger, so if they’re dealing with someone who is doing harm to them or abusing them is recognize there’s also a limit. And, you know, it’s not about sometimes not about saying, oh, well, I need to open up more, I need to be more compassionate, say sometimes I need to get out of here. I need to actually create a distance. Because actually we do also need to be safe. And we can’t just love everyone, regardless of wha their actions are.

00:47:21

And sometimes love can be very strong. We sometimes we call fierce compassion. As an abbott, I had to ask people to leave the monastery because they weren’t living in harmony with the community. Their way of life, their actions, their speech was very negative. It was bringing the energy of the community down. It was very disruptive. They didn’t want to practice the Dharma that we were offering. They didn’t want to follow. They wanted to be their own teacher. And then in one retreat we had someone like was telling the retreatants don’t listen to the monks and nuns, I have practiced longer, I have more insight. I’m older than most of them they’re teaching now. And so many people were confused. And then so many people were also complaining to us about their experience of the retreat. And we came and we had to talk to this person. And at the end of it, you know, this person was searching for love, searching for validation. But the harm that that person has done, the energy that that person has offered, wasn’t supportive. And we did have to ask that person to leave. And so sometimes we have to see also the bigger picture, and that is also protecting. Protection is also love. And we one time had to also ask a monastic to leave the community because they can’t grow and they’re not, they are not willing to be trained anymore. And everything that they were going through, their words, their daily bodily action wasn’t according to our training, wasn’t according to our precepts and mindful manners, and it was very disruptive. And it was bringing the energy of the community so down and so many people were giving energy. And we kind of created a timeframe, like, if you don’t transform within, if you don’t even show us in six months that you want to change and you’re opening yourself up to the community again. And we asked that person to leave because we also have to know our capacity. Because if we’re just tunneling all of our energy to one person, 365 days, then we don’t have time for our other brothers and sisters. So as we grow and in father, mother, leaders, elder brothers and sisters, you know, I had to learn this a lot. Like, how much love do I have to offer to one person? But if that person is not willing to change, I also have to accept my limitation. And sometimes I felt like a failure. I felt like I couldn’t help that person. And I went through all the emotions. I’m like, maybe my virtue was not good enough that they can’t see my words as a guiding energy for them to change. But sometimes that’s just what it is maybe. And just learn from this experience. And then I also recognize that sometimes if there’s a rotten grape, you know, and it’s touching the other grapes, and if you let it continue, the other grape will also be rotten. And so to love is to identify the sickness and you have to remove. And sometimes is very painful, but it’s the right action for the body.

00:51:05

Yeah. So compassion can be a sword. And also what I’ve tended to notice is if people are acting in that way, often they are suffering in that situation and actually by releasing them in whatever way that can actually benefit them. It’s not that the compassion is more than just trying to help that person in that moment, if that person’s deeply unhappy in the place they’re in, and they’re not willing to change, they’re going to continue to be really unhappy apart from infecting the people around them. It’s not actually healthy for them either. Okay, brother, you mentioned about the sutra on anger, so I just want to come back to that topic because that is something it’s an issue I’ve had in my life, short temper, and it’s an issue many people have, which is around what is anger? Does anger have a purpose? You know, and there’s a question that particularly asked that. So I just want to focus on that. So I’m just going to ask the question. A friend asked me about the place of anger in the world. He says anger has an important role in progressing social issues, and I struggle to explain how anger is not the key. How would you respond? And that is such an important question because sometimes it’s only when we see something is wrong and that energy comes up and that we’re prepared to face it and then summon up the courage and anger is an energy that does can sometimes provide that sort of sense of righteousness. And I’m not going to stand for this anymore, I’m going to take action. And we’ve seen that, you know, in the climate movement, for instance, people taking direct action. But also there’s a problem with anger. Isn’t that, brother, that anger tends to also generate anger. That if you’re angry towards someone, that they’re more likely to then raise that anger back to you. So actually, anger can look on the surface as though it’s getting the energy going and giving you the sort of strength to act, but often it builds more anger and actually we end up in a worse place. So is there a place for anger? Or if there isn’t, what is another energy that could provide the same sort of in a sense, support for action, but actually maybe is more generative or regenerative rather than creating more problems?