Welcome to episode 84 of The Way Out Is In: The Zen Art of Living, a podcast series mirroring Zen Master Thich Nhat Hanh’s deep teachings of Buddhist philosophy: a simple yet profound methodology for dealing with our suffering, and for creating more happiness and joy in our lives.
In this installment, Zen Buddhist monk Brother Phap Huu and leadership coach/journalist Jo Confino focus on profound Buddhist sutra The Discourse on Knowing the Better Way to Live Alone. Using personal stories and examples, they illustrate the daily relevance of its teachings on being present in the moment, acceptance, and the interconnectedness of all things.
Brother Phap Huu discusses how this sutra emphasizes not dwelling in the past or worrying about the future, but instead being fully present in and accepting of the here and now. He also reflects on recent events in the Plum Village community, such as a fire that destroyed an important building and why this was a profound experience for the community, leading them to grieve the loss while also finding strength in their togetherness.
The presenters further explore grieving as a necessary part of the healing process, acknowledging loss rather than trying to bypass difficult emotions; the practice of being fully present (and how to recognize when one is truly present), even in times of chaos and uncertainty; the importance of community, the role of leadership, and the transmission of teachings; the need to accept suffering as a path to greater freedom and understanding; and much more.
Co-produced by the Plum Village App:
https://plumvillage.app/
And Global Optimism:
https://globaloptimism.com/
With support from the Thich Nhat Hanh Foundation:
https://thichnhathanhfoundation.org/
List of resources
Donate to support Plum Village’s reconstruction
https://plumvillage.org/donate
Interbeing
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interbeing
Sister Hien Nghiem (Sister True Dedication)
https://plumvillage.org/people/dharma-teachers/sister-hien-nghiem
Sutras
https://plumvillage.org/genre/sutras
Magnolia Grove Monastery
https://magnoliagrovemonastery.org/
‘Letters from Thich Nhat Hanh’
https://plumvillage.org/about/thich-nhat-hanh/letters
‘Plum Village Practice Centers’
https://plumvillage.org/community/monastic-practice-centres
Dharma Talks: ‘Redefining the Four Noble Truths’
https://plumvillage.org/library/dharma-talks/redefining-the-four-noble-truths
Quotes
“The Buddha taught: ‘Do not pursue the past. Do not lose yourself in the future. The past no longer is. The future has not yet come. Looking deeply at life as it is in the very here and now, the practitioner dwells in stability and freedom. We must be diligent today. To wait until tomorrow is too late. Death comes unexpectedly. How can we bargain with it? The sage calls a person who dwells in mindfulness night and day the one who knows the better way to live alone.’”
“We all have an appointment with life every day. And that appointment with life is the very here and now.”
“To not grieve would be to deny our humanity.”
“We need the ability to ground ourselves, whether it is through a practice of sitting meditation, walking meditation, or mindful breathing: a place where we can be still and let all of our feelings appear, just like letting a lake become calm, so that we can identify and acknowledge how the world and the situation is affecting us.”
“Building my stability just means being able to also recognize the wonders I have in this moment. And that means also coming to community, coming to your loved ones, acknowledging what you have in this moment and what you’ve lost.”
“We have to come together in order to resist. We have to come together in order to speak the voice that is not being heard right now, to show the injustice that is happening.”
“A collective voice is much stronger than an individual.”
“We have to move with kindness even when we are being treated unkindly; we still have to respond with kindness. That is our vow and nobody can take that away. The only thing that can take that away is our own anger and our own decision about the actions that we take.”
“We cannot lose the integrity and humanity that we have cultivated and developed. That is the freedom that we have. That is the stability that will be transmitted into the next generation.”
“Whatever emotion we’re cultivating, we will become that emotion. So if we cultivate anger, we will become angry. If we cultivate kindness and peace, but with the Zen sword of strength, then that’s what we will become.”
“We are not a creation, we are a manifestation. So we are here because we have been conditioned by many elements.”
“Thich Nhat Hanh gives the metaphor of a boat that’s in danger of sinking. If everyone is panicking, the boat will surely capsize and everyone will be lost. But sometimes it takes just one calm person on board to settle everyone down and save the boat. So there’s something very powerful about not reacting to everything.”
“If you know how to suffer, you will suffer much less.”
00:00:00
Dear listeners, welcome to this latest episode of the podcast series The Way Out Is In.
00:00:22
I’m Jo Confino, working at the intersection of personal transformation and systems evolution.
00:00:28
And I’m Brother Phap Huu, a Zen Buddhist monk, student of Zen Master Thich Nhat Hanh, in the Plum Village tradition.
00:00:35
And today, dear listeners, we are going to focus on one particular sutra within Buddhism and sometimes it’s wonderful to pick one teaching or one sutra to actually go deep into that teaching and to discover actually new insights. And today we are going to be focusing on a sutra called the discourse on knowing the better way to live alone.
00:01:17
The way out is in.
00:01:30
Hello, dear listeners, I’m Jo Confino.
00:01:32
And I’m Brother Phap Huu.
00:01:34
And brother, so you have made the momentous decision today that we are going to focus on this one sutra, the discourse on knowing the better way to live alone. So just wondering, what is it about this sutra that you decided, let’s go for this one, because there are many, many sutras we could choose?
00:01:55
Because there’s a… one of my favorite poems or gatha that has been put into words from different teachers connected to the sutra that is, it’s a set of poetry in this that talks about the present moment and how deeply it is important to cultivate the capacity to be in the very here and now. And sometimes I would just recite it like once a month. And there’s a particular line where it says like, and life and death comes unexpectedly. Do not bargain with it.
00:02:38
Why are you looking at me so like that? I’m only 63.
00:02:43
No, well, you know, like I think like in the last month, this is our first recording of 2025 and it’s February. January has been very emotional for the community in Plum Village, France. We, one of our buildings burnt down and then one of our sangha friends passed away and he was very young, in his 40s, and it was very unexpected. So when I heard this information and this news and grieving with it, I was reading different sutras just to be guided to a practice and I happened to stumble upon this discourse. And that line was a big bell of mindfulness for me and it’s about not taking life for granted. As a lot of us, life continues on. There’s a rhythm that we may have. There’s habitual connections that we have and we may take for granted, but suddenly when something like this happens, it reminds you of how precious life is. And at the core of a lot of our practice, when the Buddha says the better way to live alone, it doesn’t mean that you’re gonna isolate yourself and not be in community or not be with your loved ones, be with your friends, but this alone is the capacity to be in the very here and now. A lot of us, we are carried away by our thinking of the past, our daydreaming about the future, and even our wandering in the present moment. And so this better way to live alone is the ability to be at home in the very here and now, in our own skin, in this present moment, accepting the here and now. And then alone here is also not being carried away by the noise of sometimes it’s the uncontrollable circumstance of the present moment also. So it’s a grounding cultivation that we have and it’s very close to a title that our teacher has, is the appointment with life. And Thay says, we all have an appointment with life every day. And that appointment with life is the very here and now. So how can we arrive deeper and deeper in our practice? And this is what the sutra helps guide us through. And this particular verse that our teacher used a lot, I’ve used it a few times as a reflection in Dharma talks, but as a meditation, it can be recited even once a day.
00:05:38
And brother, let us read that in a moment, but before we do, for those listeners who may not be aware, just tell us a little bit about the fire.
00:05:48
Yes, dear friends, on January 23rd, very early in the morning, around 2 am, a fire broke out in one of our oldest building of the monastery called Purple Cloud. Every building that was original from the moment the land was bought to create Plum Village, our teacher would give them particular names. I don’t know the history and the reason why it was called Purple Cloud. But this building is literally the first nunnery of Plum Village. And it was the building where our teacher had his own personal room when he was in Lower Hamlet. And it was where he rested. It was where he would return after every Dharma talk when he would offer in the big hall, in the hamlet. And so it carried a very spiritual and sacred energy because it was one of the origins of the physical Plum Village, right? So we can know that Plum Village is just an idea. Only when Thay was able to, Thay here means Zen Master Thich Nhat Hanh, only when Thay was able to purchase a land and then call it, now this is a monastery, suddenly Plum Village becomes a reality. So when the building burnt down it was definitely chaos. I wasn’t present there but I saw the video. But I remember waking up around five something and, you know, just checking the time on my phone and then I saw all of these missed messages and missed calls and it was very strange to have this many messages this early in the morning and particularly phone calls from sisters that would never call me. And particularly at 4am or 5am. And most of us we put our phones into silent mode and, you know, we make a vow try to also have a good discipline with our telephones in order to keep our practice and our freedom from it but fortunately I saw all these massages and getting in touch with the photos and the videos that were being sent and you catch yourself in a moment of shock and not knowing what to do, to be honest, in that moment. And then just be on the phone call with, for me it was with Sister True Dedication, and just to hear what is happening and in a way for me it was also being powerless a little bit, because it has been going on now for three hours and it was a huge fire. 23 firemen had to come. We made the local news. We made the papers of the little villages around here. It was definitely an event of the day. Fortunately, all of our sisters are safe. The firemen said, another five to seven minutes and it would have been very dangerous, some sisters may have not made it because the fire was out of control, and they were sleeping in the upper level, and it would have been more difficult to come down. And now that we can talk about it in a less, let’s say, emotional space, it was so beautiful, because when something dramatic like this happened, community comes together also, very instantly. Hearing the stories of the sisters where, you know, they were just thinking about Thay’s room and they weren’t even thinking about their personal belongings. Like sisters lost their passport, lost their resident cards, lost all, like four sisters lost all of their belongings. Like literally they just have what they were wearing, everything burnt down. So a lot of sisters lost the little things that a monastic can own. And some is, you know, it’s photos of their time with Thay, it is memories, letters, and so on. And it’s a practice of just grieving of material possessions that whatever we may have. And when we speak about material possession here, like I just wanna, I wanna take this opportunity to speak about it because we were able to share to the world of what has happened and we received so much love, we received so much care as well as a lot of support financially to look at a future redevelopment of this sacred space. Coming along with it, like a bunch of comments where some were from sangha members and even one from a lay dharma teacher, which I felt was very insensitive and a little bit like, yeah, it’s like wrong timing, I would say. Kind of like, oh, monastics are not supposed to be attached to Thay’s room, you know, this is Thay’s lesson for you to let go of his possessions, his belongings. And then some were even saying, oh, Thay would laugh if you guys are this sad about it. And I felt honestly very hurt about that. And I felt like, wow, like how can we use the Dharma against a beloved community… even if it was the intention to teach us, you know, this is totally the wrong timing. And some even linked it to, you know, cause the 22nd of January is the day that Thay passed. And then the 23rd is like, oh, you know, this is Thay sending you a message. If anything, I’m like, no, this is Thay helping us be safe, you know, like his energy was there to wake up the sisters this early in the morning and to get out with safety. But I just want to speak on this because I felt like, you know, like never to use the Dharma as a weapon and use it to poke and to criticize, not criticize, I wouldn’t say criticize, but just to, I don’t know, I just felt it was insensitive, like just imagine like your home burnt down and somebody can say, oh God is teaching us a lesson, you know. And let’s leave that a little bit for later, you know? And I think for the sisters, they could have lost nine sisters. And these nine sisters, some of them are going through like a kind of post-traumatic stress, right? PTSD, right? And they’re taking care of it. And some of the sisters who, they have their history in the past with abandonment, with loss of a home, and it’s all coming up. So it’s very real, you know, it’s a very human experience and touching the fear, touching the grief, but also touching something so sacred, you know, that is lost now. And for us, the practice in the Dharma, like we see like Thay’s hut that we’re sitting in, Jo. Like imagine, like one of the sisters told us, it’s like, imagine if Thay’s Sitting Still Hut where you record the podcast, where people come to sit and to be in touch with Thay, burns down. Like, that’s what you would feel, like this loss of a sacred place. Even though we know it is of the nature of impermanence, but at the same time, as a human being, there’s a spiritual energy that has been cultivated by a human being who has gone through so much suffering and create a refuge for so many people and imagine if that was to be burnt down. The human resilience is also so powerful. Like in our history of many cultures, many civilization, many traditions, we have lost homes, we have lost places. We are refugees. We go and we seek new lands to build. And it takes our blood, sweat, and tears, right? It takes experience. It takes so many hands to develop together. And suddenly, this can all be destroyed in one day, in a few hours. And just to know that it’s lost, it’s important to grieve that, you know, is to be in touch with something so spiritual that it’s gone. So this is our practice, you know, not to take even a building for granted, especially for us monastics, like all of this is based on people’s generous donation. Like when somebody comes to a retreat, like you’re not paying for the experience, you’re just, you’re contributing to the sustainability of a whole tradition. So for us, like we take everything with as much gratitude as we can generate. And we want to be so mindful with the resources that we receive, the donations that we receive, the resources that are able to generate, even through our teachers’ books and the books of other monastics and so on. Even the shop, you know, it is not to profit anything, it is just to develop and build and sustain a spiritual community that needs a spiritual structure. Because without a spiritual structure, you wouldn’t have monastics, you wouldn’t have Thay. Thay wouldn’t have a retreat center to bring all of you in, right? So I think we can see for us how important our relationship to a land is, to a tree, to a garden, to a pond, to a building, because they are part of the thread that creates a spiritual dimension.
00:16:54
Brother, thank you for all that. And I think we’ve already been going deep into the discourse. So I have only one memory of being in Thay’s room in Lower Hamlet, which was the first time I came to Plum Village with my wife, Paz, who’s sitting in the room. And Thay invited us for tea in that room. And I always remember walking in and Thay was sitting on his hammock with his back to us, and there were a couple of nuns on the ground and gently swaying him. And then he saw we had arrived and he got up gently and we sat in a circle. And for me it was like, it was an ageless moment. It could have been a thousand years ago. And it’s really stuck in my memory and my heart. And I was only there for an hour max, once. So I can imagine that actually it’s not so much an attachment, but it’s more depth of feeling. And also, brother, just one other thing. You talk about the importance of grieving, and I’m sure we’ll come into this in the sutra, but often people use spiritual teachings as to bypass their feelings. That actually, and I think we will come onto this, is that actually a lot of people find it very difficult to grieve and sort of try and push it away in a box. And actually the deeper truth for me anyway is that grieving is healing. It’s a way to really come back to our center, to really, really just to experience what it is to have love, to have understanding and compassion because that is the depth of feeling. So it’d be very strange to not have, to not grieve, to not grieve would be to deny our humanity.
00:18:55
Again, and I think in the grieving is a way to demonstrate our gratitude for what it meant for so many. And even some ex-monastics or some monastics who literally told me like they’re in so much pain because they grew up in that house. And even though they’re not a nun anymore, they said, you know, like, oh my gosh, like that building shaped me who I am. That’s where I learned to share a room with so many other sisters. That’s where I learned to live in harmony. And so you can see like how a space can mean so much to somebody, it can shift their whole view in life and how it can guide them to be who they are today. And as we continue to grieve through that loss of the building, like in the span of three weeks, and of course, it was linked to our lunar calendar and then a few days later, we were preparing for welcoming the Lunar New Year. And the Lunar New Year in our tradition, it’s also, it’s a moment you celebrate everybody’s birthday. So back in the days, like in a lot of the Southeast country, we didn’t have individual birthday. On the first day of the Lunar calendar, everybody turns one year older. So there’s a wisdom to like, this is a collective moment that we are all growing up in this, on the first of the lunar calendar. And it’s a time of coming together, so it’s very similar to the Christmas spirit in the West. And because of just losing a building and then some other like drama, I can say like some drama in the sangha that we had to take care of and embrace, we came together very closely, like during these days of celebrating our togetherness. And I think thanks to acknowledging the loss and the pain and then seeing the value of our togetherness, I remember speaking to Sister True Dedication and she just shared like, you know, being able to touch how sacred that space was and how being able to like to acknowledge the pain of losing it. But we know that that sacredness is built by the practice of our teacher and each individual. So knowing that the sacredness of course can be rebuilt and will in a way even be stronger now because of our commitment and our deepening of how valuable we see this togetherness is and this presence is and, yeah, it was beautiful in a way to touch this impermanence of loss but also thanks to impermanence we can rebuild, we can create, we can cultivate and we can generate even more sacredness into a room, into a space, you know. So that that was very refreshing, in a way, also as we enter into 2025 and I know that there’s a lot of uncertainties, there’s a lot of fear, there’s a lot of loss right now in the world too with some executive decisions and so on. And it’s important to grieve it, you know. It’s important to feel the sadness that is arising and even the anger that arises. But then how do we generate our anger into virtuous action?
00:23:18
And brother, one of the things I think comes to mind as you speak is about the importance of proximity. So, of course, you know, before the fire in Lower Hamlet, we’ve seen the destruction of fire in Los Angeles, and we know that there are fires burning all over the world. And sometimes it’s only when it comes really close to home that we’re able to truly feel the depth of it. And that when we feel the depth of it, that allows us to feel the depth of pain further away. So I always remember going away to a conference on civilizational collapse, which I was co-chairing, and we spent four days talking about the end of civilization, which of course is something that should generate an enormous amount of emotion and sadness, but I felt it very much at an intellectual level. And then when I came home back to our house here, there’d been a severe drought. And we have a little pond, because you mentioned ponds. We have a little pond outside our house, which I treasure so deeply because I love sitting there in the spring and summer and listening to the frogs and sort of finding newts. And there’s all sorts of insect life and fish. And it’s only a small pond, but it’s so full of life and it had dried up completely. And I remember feeling so bereft, and that even though I was aware of droughts all over the world, but it was only when I… my little pond, not even my pond, their little pond outside of a house dried up, that I really felt that loss. So I think there’s something in this also about how do we connect our experience with also what’s going on in the world?
00:25:13
100%, it’s… We spoke about this as a monastic community how to… It allowed us to touch the feeling of loss and destruction that is happening, like you said, the fires in Los Angeles, but also the other natural disasters that are happening everywhere in the world. And then the displacement of people because of war, people losing really their home, and then having to rebuild and just seeing like our Palestinian friends with that resilience of coming home and saying we will rebuild, you know, and like in a way this is to teach us of also the human resilience that we have and the hope that we can carry together.
00:26:06
And the community spirit that comes in difficult times. That when everything’s well and happy, we can retreat into individual lives, but then when disaster strikes, we realize how much we need each other, how much we depend on each other.
00:26:21
Exactly. Yeah, it was so funny because the morning of the 23rd, and the news has this channel in Plum Village, everybody starts messaging or starts telling, and then it goes down the great vine of the community network, and all the brothers in Upper Hamlet are calling sisters, like, hey, we’re going to come down, or we’re going to help. And they’re like, what are you going to do? And the brothers are like, I don’t know, I just want to be there. And in a way, many vans came down to Lower Hamlet and like, there’s nothing we can do, but it’s literally just showing up to support. Oh, and the sisters were… Like the thing about community life, especially in Plum Village is like, there are so many programs already set. So even after the fire, like we still had to prepare for the coming of the lunar calendar, and then we still had, on some of us who are working in different sectors in the community, we had to meet with our lawyers and our accountants and our bank members. And it took a lot of effort to bring them all to Plum Village and there was, you know, it was 5 am and I was like, do we cancel this? And there’s a part of me that really wanted to cancel this and recognizing how difficult it was to bring this meeting together. And there was a part of us that, you know, the show must go on. Like life still continues and we still have to show up for other aspects of life that are still happening. And so we did that. And at the end of the evening, when we finished the meeting, it was a very long day, finally, like we were just able to, you know, especially for some of our sisters to just cry and for us to just witness that and hold that space together and just to allow that to happen, you know. And the New Hamlet sisters… So Plum Village has three hamlets, so one hamlet for the monks and then two hamlets for the nuns. So that day, the New Hamlet sisters, they cook for the sisters of Lower Hamlet and they would drive the food down to the hamlet. So it was really a heart space moment and a heart service moment, like how do we show up for one another?
00:28:48
So brother, let’s get to more specifically the discourse. So do you want to start because you mentioned the poem. So maybe it would be a good moment just to read that and then we can just sort of contemplate on it.
00:29:03
The Buddha taught, do not pursue the past, do not lose yourself in the future. The past no longer is, the future has not yet come. Looking deeply at life as it is in the very here and now, the practitioner dwells in stability and freedom. We must be diligent today. To wait till tomorrow is too late. Death comes unexpectedly. How can we bargain with it? The sage calls a person who dwells in mindfulness night and day, the one who knows the better way to live alone.
00:29:50
Thank you, brother. I wanted to pick up one part of that first, which is to be in the present moment with stability and freedom. And the reason I want to focus maybe on that first is because Plum Village has been organizing climate retreats around the world for those at the front line of trying to prevent runaway climate disaster and ecosystem loss, and who are sort of fighting social injustice around the world. And those people are very dedicated to the cause. They’re often fighting against the odds. They’re putting their heart and soul into that. And I do a monthly sort of checking call, community call with the group from the Americas, North American and Latin American, South America. And I had this a couple of days ago, and there’s an extraordinary amount of grief at the moment with what’s going on in terms of the US with this sort of… all the sort of radical changes that are being brought that are putting the movement back a long time, closing down USA, closing down sort of climate regulations, da da da, we all know what’s going on. And so the people working in the sector are in shock. It’s a bit like the fire, brother. There’s this sense of complete shock and panic. There’s a sense of overwhelm, not knowing how to cope and not knowing how to respond. That there’s so much happening at the same time that people don’t know what to do, that one of the people on the call was saying that members of staff in her team at this NGO are getting threats. So, and there was someone else on the call whose grandfather died in the Holocaust and is saying, what I fear is I’m seeing this all over again. So, and this is just a small sort of group, but it speaks of what’s happening much more widely. And what people are asking is how do I find my stability and freedom when I seem to be, everything I’ve built in the past is being destroyed and all my fears are coming up for the future, that actually everything we care about is being undermined at a critical time where actually, if we don’t act now, the chances of climate disaster growing and us going from not 1.5 degree heating but to two, three, or four degrees is growing and becoming more likely. So that altogether is a very, very difficult place to be in and speaks a lot about what you were saying. So it’s so interesting that discourse it says, actually that we are able to find stability and freedom in the present moment. Well, what would you say to people who are going through this? How can we start, and I say we, because actually it’s not just they, it’s all of us. How do we start to find our stability when everything seems to be moving?
00:33:30
I think, first of all, we have to have the ability to ground ourself, whether it is through a practice of sitting meditation, walking meditation, mindful breathing, like a place so that we can be still to let all of the feelings that we have appear, like just of like, letting a lake become calm so that we can identify and acknowledge how the world and the situation is affecting us. The Buddha teaches this, he says looking deeply at life as it is in the very here and now. And that means we have to have the ability to accept the pain that is real. We have to accept the disappointment, even sometimes the feeling of gross, like what happening in the world and with a lot of individuals who are billionaires are literally making decisions that are affecting those that are not privileged are gonna suffer from these decision-making and also from using the playing on the ignorance of individuals to get what they want. It’s like a little bit of a bully mentality, I feel, you know, and I feel that in me too, like what is happening is like, oh, we’re just being pushed around by power right now. And I’m sure a lot of people probably echo this, right? And like seeing that this is what is happening and to find a ground, to see what is happening and how it is affecting us and what freedom are we losing in this moment. That is the important part. And by this, it means like, for example, like, yeah, like there was a day that I think I got quite bitter by what is happening and it affected how I am in the present moment and I saw that I was losing my own freedom because of all the information I have been receiving, right? And for me it’s like, okay, I know what is happening, I need to, I need to have a little bit of space where I don’t listen to this I don’t hear about this so that I can nurture myself in this moment so I can build my stability. And building my stability, it just means being able to still also recognizing the wonders I have in this moment. And that means also coming to community, coming to your loved ones, just acknowledging what you have in this moment and what you’ve lost. And then how can we, how can then we turn our actions into building, into community. And I think a lot of people are speaking on, in moments like this, community is the answer. We have to come together in order to resist. We have to come together in order to speak the voice that is not being heard right now, to show the injustice that is happening. And that becomes a collective voice is much stronger than an individual. And we can see that what is happening, it is also fed by a collective view. So therefore we have to bring in another view, collectively. And on a personal level, I was just reminded this morning, I was in a room with two of the brothers and we were preparing for our day and we have a community gathering this morning and we’ve been having a lot of meetings on our end also, and one of the brothers said, Phap Huu, how are you? I’m like, I always say, what do you mean?
00:37:49
What do you want?
00:37:51
Because that question is always loaded. It’s always like, it’s always trying to say something to me, but like, you know, scared because of who I am in my position in the sangha. And then I’m like, what do you mean, brother? And he’s like, well, you know, you’ve been very expressive in the meetings, like your facial expression, you look very worried. And I was like, oh wow, thank you for sharing. I wish I can have a mirror in front of me during this meeting, just to see my reactions. I also know that everything that is going on, we individually are affected by it, whether we like it or not, right? I think if we don’t, that means we’re just totally, you know, blocking ourselves off from, let’s say, the present moment, whether it is happiness or suffering. And whether, yeah, like how you’re tapped into the present moment. And so for me, like there’s this internal sangha, there is then the external sangha, the communities, and then the world as a sangha also seeing the loss and the fear and the pain and yeah, and just coming back to this present moment and then finding our stability because I know I can be solid. I know I can accept all of this and still find a way. And here I want to speak about the incredible journey I was able to witness when Thay, how he grounded himself in the practice when Prajna Monastery, so it was our Plum Village branch in Vietnam that was formulated and established for three years. And after three years, we were disbanded and we were kicked out of the country. And we were literally forced out of the country. And I remember like knowing that we can’t do anything. We’re powerless here. It’s gonna happen. And how are we gonna react? That is what I wanna speak about. And I just remembered Thay doing walking meditation, grounding himself in his steps, in nature. And I was walking behind him and I know that he is very aware of the situation. And in his own mind, having his strategy and how he’s gonna take care of his 400 students that are gonna have to find a new home. And what is the present moment action right now? And from these meditations that Thay would have and his collective. Meditation and Thay also took refuge in the sangha in that time. I remember him telling us that Thay is also taking refuge in the sangha in this difficult time. So even if you are a very solid person, maybe even an enlightened person, you’re still very human and you need a community to express your sadness, you know. And it was like also feeling that it’s a loss for the country to lose a monastery. And from this meditations I remember Thay writing incredible letters to guide us through this moment and at the core of it all was like how we have to continue to move with non-violence. We have to move with kindness even when we were being treated unkindly we still have to treat back with kindness. That is our vow and nobody can take that away. The only person that can take that away is our own anger and our own decision of actions that we make. And our brothers and sisters being carried out of the monastery in sitting position, you know, our brothers and sisters being provoked to be angry, to fight, to be aggressive, deciding collectively to react with stillness and nonviolent, because nobody can take that away. And we received many of the brothers and sisters from Prajna, and that is how, you know, Magnolia Grove Monastery was established, our centers in Australia were established, our center in Thailand was established, our center in Hong Kong was established. So from the mud, from a loss of something, so many other things were developed and born and manifested. And I remember asking some of the brothers, like, how did you take care of yourself? And he’s like, if I was by myself, I would have definitely fought. But because I was in community and together, we were so committed to our vows and who we want to be. And so he said, I just fully took refuge in the sangha. And that was the place that I took refuge in my course of action. How will it affect my community by my actions? Is my action representing our deepest vow? So I think, for me, this is what comes up when you ask this […], like, what are the response? The response is we cannot lose our integrity and our humanity that we have cultivated and developed. And that is the freedom that we have. And that is the stability that will be transmitted into the next generation. So, in a way, this is a challenge for the world right now, how we respond. What we respond, we are creating a culture of, like if we all choose to be angry and fight back in a way that doesn’t build but destroys more, then that is what we’re transmitting. And it becomes a cycle and we repeat again and again. So if we look at through the lens of a practitioner, of a meditator, through the lens of Zen, we would ask us to respond in a way to build and cultivate still the community we want, the team we want, and it may need to take new shapes, new forms.
00:45:13
Thank you, brother, there’s so much in what you said and I just want to pick up just a couple of things. One is about, I always remember Thay saying, you know, there’s nothing worse than an angry peace activist. Because if we fight, if we use the same energy that’s coming towards us, all we do is create more anger. You can’t diminish anger with anger, you can only diminish anger with peace and love. And we become our emotions and you will remember, brother, when we went in Canada at the climate leaders retreat and there was one indigenous elder who had been for years fighting against the tar sands and the expansion of tar sands and he said the way I kept myself motivated was to be angry, but now I’ve realized I’ve become an angry man and I’m angry at everyone and that was including his loved ones. So, whatever emotion we’re cultivating, we will become that emotion. So if we cultivate anger, we will become angry. If we cultivate kindness and peace, but with the Zen sword of strength, then actually that’s what we will become. And the other thing, brother, particularly, and maybe we can speak a bit more about this is, we never know what is going to happen. So you describe it so beautifully… You know, at the time the monastery was being disbanded, it looks like an utter disaster. Something, after 39 years, Thay is invited back to Vietnam. He opens his monastery. There’s so much promise and hope in that. And then for it to be disbanded, looks as though it’s the end of days in terms of coming, you know, bringing the Plum Village practice back to its home. But then you say, actually, looking back, we see that so many new things happened as a result. But I think that that is so true of life, that often we face a personal difficulty and this often happens. And we think, oh, woe is me, you know, the end of… there’s no hope, I’ve lost everything. But then out of that, something new can emerge. I think that comes of this moment in terms of, let’s say, you know, the polycrisis we’re facing, including the climate crisis, that it looks as though this moment in time that everything people have been building for years is being destroyed. But actually, underneath that, we have no idea what is going to come from this moment. And that it may be that things have to reach a certain level before a renewal can happen. It’s sometimes a collapse needs to happen for renewal. And Thay spoke about this many times. He said, you know, everything arises, everything falls, that there’s no civilization that has been born that hasn’t died. And actually the most important thing is to be at peace and to be stable and to aim for the place we want to go. And so in that regard, brother, I just want to… because a lot of people confuse being in the present moment with, oh, I don’t need to think about the past, I don’t need to think about the future, I just have to be present. But of course, it is important to know about the past and heal the past. It is important to think about the future and our aspirations. But actually, what I understand the sutra saying is not to avoid those, but it’s how do we think about them? How do we… How do we approach the past? How do we approach the future? And how do we bring that into the present moment? So I’d really like if you can sort of build on that aspect.
00:49:09
100 % When the Buddha says, do not dwell in the past, the past has already gone. Don’t lose yourself in the future, it is not yet here. But that doesn’t mean ignore it. Because, you know, because in also in the teachings of the Buddha, there’s a teaching about the three times and the three times are interrelated. And the three times are the past, the present and the future. And the past is what is developing. Like we are living from the threads of the past. We are a manifestation of everything that existed in the past. That’s who we are. And in the very here and now, this moment, the what we are thinking, what we are saying, what we are planning, what we are looking deeply into, we’re building a future. So when the Buddha, he goes into this in the sutra and he breaks it down from the past, the future and the present. And it is a little bit repetitive, but that’s how simple it is actually. Sometimes I’m like, oh my God, this is so repetitive. because this is what it is. The Buddha says, if you think about the past, the way you were, the thoughts you’ve had, and you’re just wishing to be that past, then you’re lost in the past. You’re not giving yourself the permission to be in the here and now. And then if you’re losing yourself in the future, you just wish about this, you wish about that, you worry about this, you worry about that, and you are running away from the present moment. then you’re not living deeply life. Like the word is life, like the present moment is life, period. And when we are practitioners, when we say I’m dwelling in the present moment, what does this present moment contain? So if we use my mindfulness to look at the course of action of where we are now, we can see where the wrong views are from. Why do people have particular views in order to support, let’s say, a view that we know is gonna bring suffering? So instead of blaming and being, of course, like, I’m angry sometimes. We all become angry, but not let that inflame and take over us. It’s like, but where is this source of understanding? And when you see, oh my gosh, like, this is filled with greed, for example. a particular course of action, then suddenly you can have compassion for the ones that are gonna be affected. And then how can we use the present moment to write, to share about things to help enlighten people? Yeah, I remember, you can find these letters that Thay wrote about Prajna. Like, Thay called it Prajna as a koan. Like, what is human right? What is religious freedom? What are the course of action of loss and so on? We can find it on our website. Some of it we published it publicly. And I’m not sure if 100%, if all of the letters were… were made public, because some of it was really directed to the monastics, like Thay’s wish for us to care for ourselves in this present moment. And from his clarity, his transmission of his words became our ingredient for actions. So leaders and refuge, people of refuge, like your words can help guide. So the clarity that you can hold in the present moment to guide the future is very real. So when we talk about the present moment, we can bring the past into the here and now in order to visit, to study, to understand. And it can empower and it can teach our present moment. The same time in this present moment, we have to plan for the next steps, the next course of action. And we have to do it in a way that we don’t lose ourselves. So there are very concrete practices, like from time to time, in our meetings, we would just take a moment to listen to a sound of the bell, to ground us, like just become aware of the body, become aware of the breath, become aware that, look, we’re a community, we’re looking at a situation, and we’re gonna do our best in this present moment to find a solution. And then we take the course of action. And then later on, we may find a better idea and we come back. We’re organic in this way, you know? I think our teacher liked to use the word, like we’re an organism rather than an organization because an organism is quite living, right? It’s alive. It’s like, you gotta move with what is happening in the here and now. An organization is sometimes it’s like, it’s so structured that you feel so caught in it and it’s unmovable. So the present moment, it allows us to be alive, to be present, to hold, and then to create, to manifest. And in Buddhism, we always speak on we are not a creation, we are a manifestation. So we are conditioned by so many elements for us to be here. So the future that we would like to help heal, for example, we would like to heal the past, we would like to heal the present moment. We wanna condition and create insight that can have an impact for individuals, collective, society in the world. And this is when in chaos, there needs to be a moment to be still, to review, to look at, to chew on the situation and then let insight to be born, because sometimes insight needs a little bit of accepting for something to give rise from the pain, the suffering because if we look at the suffering we just want to fix it then we’re coming from an intellectual space and sometimes it needs to come from a space of knowing by experience. We all have this and we have to let it also, yeah, cook, in a way. You gotta let it cook so the dish becomes fully cooked so it’s edible or we use the language so it ripens.
00:56:30
Beautiful, brother, and it very much speaks of, Thay’s sort of gives the metaphor of a boat that’s in danger of sinking. And if everyone is panicking, then the boat will surely turn over and everyone will be lost. And sometimes it just takes one calm person on that boat just to be able to settle everyone down and save the boat. So there’s something very powerful about not reacting to everything. And what we see at the moment and what’s going on in the US is that people are being so overwhelmed by the scale and suddenness of change that actually they’ve gone into reactive mode. And what I hear you saying is actually if we go into reactive mode, then we will surely sink. And the most important thing is actually not to caught in that trap but to calm ourselves, to stop, to allow us to contemplate what is really happening here. And then brother, there’s about then how do I respond in this moment? And when so many things, and this can be in any situation, not just the present political situation, but in any situation, if we feel there’s so many things we need to address at the same time, then often we do them all very badly. And one thing I learned from Thay is about the importance of focus on the one or two things that you can do rather than carry the weight of the world on your shoulders. And I always remember in one of my interviews with Thay, I said, Thay, there’s so much suffering in the world, you know, how can you not get carried away by it? And he said something… I’m paraphrasing, I’ve learned to do one or two things very well. And I said, well, what are they? And he said, well, I’ve learned to sit and to walk. And I always remember, well, yeah, what’s the good of that? Because I was a newbie, I didn’t know the practice. And it was only later, of course, that I realized actually it was the quality of his sitting and the quality of his walking. That were the foundation to build everything he did. And if he didn’t have that quality of sitting and didn’t have that quality of… walking, which is about coming back into the present moment, he couldn’t have built what he did. And so I just wonder if there’s anything more you want to say about, you know, about how do we respond in a moment of chaos? Because it feels like if we trust life, then it’s about saying, well, we’ll do this and we’ll do it to the best of ability. And I trust in life that other people will do what they need to do. And if I carry the weight that I have to do everything, then I will be of no use at all.
00:59:28
I think each and every one of us has a different response to chaos. And it’s good to know our capacity. It’s about knowing oneself. And I learned that during the fire of Lower Hamlet, there were clear leaders in that moment, sisters who were directing, were organizing. And then there were those who, in that moment, I just follow. What needs to be done, I’m there. And then there were some who, this is too overwhelming. My presence is not gonna help. And they retreated. They went into the hall and just sat. And it’s not because they are ignoring it, but because they recognize that they’re having their own inner response right now. And if they’re there and they become numb and helpless, it can be a dangerous situation, right? So the present moment of each and every one of us is to develop our capacity and to knowing our capacity. And when Thay says, do one thing that you’re good at, because once you master one thing, you can master another thing and you build on that. But if you keep trying to do everything, then you’re not gonna fully be able to do anything in the end. You know, his name, yukan means one action. And that’s why, you know, that was his vow. Because one action becomes multiple actions, but you can only do one action at a time, like at the best capacity you can. Like if we are trained to, like for example, in the sangha, we are trained to flow as a river. And that’s a very deep and loaded insight, meaning you’re practicing selflessness almost at a multi-layer level in a community. So when like the fire happened, a lot of sisters didn’t care about themselves. They cared about the sangha. Some cared about, you know, because one of the, our accountant’s desk is there, so they cared about all of the paperwork. And they were like, you know, like, I got to save this, like, this is like, if we don’t have this, all these statements, da da da. And it was incredible how every individual goes into different modes of what they are cultivating through their life. And some just, we got to go into Thay’s room, save his original calligraphies, take some of the notebooks that he wrote that we kept, because Thay would leave, for example, some of his robes in every monastery, like his robes that he wore, his jacket that he wore. And he used to tell me this, personally, he said, leave it so it warms up the place, meaning like his… you know that he’s physically here because these are the materials that he’s used and has been a part of his journey. Some of his notebooks that he would write about the Dharma, how he would teach, so sisters knew where they were. Right? So they would go in and take and try to save whatever we can. So in the response, I think we can generate the energy that needs to be there in the present moment, but we have to cultivate this skillfulness of action, whether it is thinking, speaking or physical action. And I think the response should always come from a place of clarity. I think I’m learning this more for myself, I think because of our pace in society now, I’ve got a habit to problem solve everything so instantly because there’s so much expectation and there’s so much like, maybe like a demand in a way. And sometimes I realize like some cases that you need just one day, like to look deeply at it, you know, to feel it, to feel like, is this request coming from an understanding, a collective view, or is it very individualistic? Is it greedy? Is it so personal? Is it… ? Is there insight in this request, you know? And I know I have a response which is like people pleasing. So I try to fix everything. I want everyone to be happy. And I’m learning that that is not the best. That’s not the best way to be a leader, to be responsible for happiness because individual happiness has to contribute to the collective happiness. And I’ve been learning this this year, at the beginning of this year, I’ve had some things I had to take care of, reflect on, and I catch myself after a few days, I’m like, why did I respond so quickly? When I could have said, thank you so much for sharing, I’ll come back to you. I’ll take some time to reflect on this and to then to really come back with a response that I know speaks of the value and the transmission that I’ve received. So in response, there are grounds that you can rely on that you have cultivated and to know that in chaos or in fear… I think there is a right to respond to chaos, like, you know, sometimes you can’t afford to just sit still and do nothing, but take care of the situation and then have a moment to debrief, to let things settle and let things grieve. Like, yeah, like, you know, like, I think like the passing of your beloved, right? The passing of Thay, like, I didn’t cry into… I mean, I cried then, but then, like, all of like the sadness came much later, right? I think sometimes we have to give permission for things to arrive also.
01:06:12
Thank you, brother. Just a couple of things as you speak. I just want to sort of focus on for a minute. One is you talked about leadership and the non-discrimination of leadership. Because one of the things I’ve learned in Plum Village is, which I think is really beautiful teaching, is that sometimes you need to lead from the front. Sometimes you need to lead from the middle, which is about bringing two parts and keeping them together. And sometimes you need to lead from the back, which is actually make sure that no one is falling behind. And often we have such a discrimination about what leadership is, what status means. And in my experience, often the people with the least status and the people with no title, that actually can show by far the most courageous leadership. And we saw that in the fires, where even people who were not from, people who were sort of immigrants from other countries were trying to save houses that didn’t even belong to them. And I think sometimes we misunderstand leadership as being the person with the power, but sometimes those who are powerless actually have most courage, and sometimes because they have… least to lose. And we know that with the monastics that you have, you know, three robes and a few personal belongings, that’s it. There’s not much to lose, and there’s not far to fall. So that was interesting for me just to sort of listen to you. And the other thing, brother, just to focus for a moment on what it means to suffer. Because in my experience, most people are trying to avoid suffering. And when suffering comes up, they either displace it, deny it, bypass it, push it away or whatever. And yet, and this comes back to, of course, the basic teaching of the Four Noble Truths, that the First Noble Truth is, we suffer. In your sort of understanding, what helps, what creates the space in which we can grieve? Because, you know, particularly in Western society, grieving is not something that is honored or encouraged or given space for. We’ve lost a lot of ceremonies in the world that would have been about grieving. And that grief sometimes can be a celebration. But most people desperately trying to avoid it. And when they see it in someone else, often they’ll try and close it down because they don’t want to feel their own grief come up. But there’s something about that when we truly are able to grieve, then we, and we move through that, then we’re free. And if we don’t grieve, then actually, if, you know, and this is again what I’ve understood in Plum Village, if we deny our suffering, we also deny happiness. We can’t separate it out. We can’t say, oh, well, I’ll be happy, but I won’t suffer, because actually they rely on each other. So what is your understanding of how we create space to actually go into our feelings without the fear that we’re going to fall apart and be consumed into this sort of void and never emerge again?
01:09:49
Thay has a very powerful sentence and he says, if you know how to suffer, you will suffer much less. And this really speaks to what you just explained, the fear of suffering. And the reality is we all suffer. That is the truth. And, you know, like, there’s always going to be something for us to embrace and to accept. How do we hold and just know that, okay, this is something that just happened. It’s bringing up pain, it’s bringing up feelings, okay, let’s talk about… So something that happened recently is we’ve had two monastics disrobing, leaving. And their way of disrobing and leaving wasn’t the most graceful and beautiful. And it brought up a lot of pain. It brought up a lot of… the feeling of lost also, you know, like the feeling of like, man, like for some, like we love them, you know, and then to leave and to leave during a time of collective healing is also painful because it’s like, okay, like we, as a monastic community, and especially in my position, like I’ve embraced so many people leaving the sangha. Like it’s a part of life. It’s a stream of life, birth and death, coming and going. It’s natural. There needs to be loss for new things to be born. But when we are also living in community, there is… we want to be caring people, we want to be mindful of the selection of timing. I think it’s also a kind of gratitude we can offer to the community. And that really stirred up a pot in some of us, individually, collectively. But I have to embrace this, I’m like, okay, we talked about it, we even said, okay, let’s write together the five ways of how to not leave the sangha. Like what not to do when you’re asking to leave the community, you know? And the five ways you should do when you’re going to leave the community. Because there’s an art to it, like there’s an art to gratitude, there’s an art to leaving, there’s an art to reverence, right? And I remember like talking through this during the lunar celebration when we just, there was a big body of monastics, we’re in one of the rooms of the sisters and we were all just sharing how we are feeling, you know, because it was very recent so it was very raw for a lot of us and yeah, one of the monastic that left is a senior monastic in the community and for some were like their mentors, were their companions. Yes, some felt they lost trust, because of the way or the timing of it, right? And so allowing each and every one of us to share from a space, and when we listen so tenderly and we listen so deeply, like we’re very mindful of the words we’re using, because we know we’re carrying a particular energy also. And then, having, you know, talking about experience of other, cause we all have different experiences. Some of them asked me like how, how it has been for you, you know. And I said, for me, like the first few years, like this particular suffering. And when we talk about suffering, it has to be narrowed down to what is the suffering, right? And like when we lose a member in our community, like I’ve lost my mentors. And I have to learn to love again, learn again, see my elders, other brothers as those I can take refuge in. I’ve lost some of my like ‘ride or die’ in the monastic order where, you know, we dreamed about, you know, growing old together, being venerables and having students and like talking about, you know, if one of my student is so naughty, I’ll send him to you so you can like discipline him because you are of this character, for example. You know, we would fantasize like our future as old monks and nuns, and then, you know, the causes and conditions of life, we cannot be together anymore. And then to embrace it, to suffer with it, to accept it. But then because you accepted it, like you said, Jo, like once you’ve accepted it, you give you and the different individual and that suffering to move through. And for some, it doesn’t mean like you still don’t suffer. It’s kind of like a scar in a way that is healed, but I know how to honor it. Like, in my perfect world, I would want all of us to still be monastics together. And I wish that, as a community, we could be as embracive and as supportive for all conditions of life, but that’s not the reality. You know, we have our limits. Some just don’t connect anymore to the path. And that’s totally fine. So knowing how to suffer is such an art. And somebody just asked me this yesterday in a class also say, brother, when you speak about suffering is it physical or mental? And I always say, well, we always have to be mindful when we say, I am mindful of my suffering, meaning I am mindful of a situation. So if it is a physical suffering, learning to accept our physical limitation, for example. And I know I spoke about this in different podcasts, but I really learned this with Thay, you know, when he went through his stroke, he came out of his coma, and seeing him accept his limitation was very difficult for me as an individual because I wanted him to be able to talk again. I wanted to hear him teach. I wanted him to be able to walk again. But when he accepted that, he gave him freedom because, you’re not fighting anymore. You’re not fighting something that you cannot regain anymore. And then because you’ve accepted that, your present moment changes. Thay, even though he couldn’t speak, his presence was louder than any of our presences. So it was a teaching in itself. The way he showed up, the way he looked at us, the way he would put his hand on our heads, or just acknowledgement, you know, like those were his practice of mindfulness, to be with us. And the first like year, like Thay really put a lot of effort in trying to regain whatever he can through different doctors and different interventions and he really gave his heart like trying to get back motion in his right hand, trying to speak again. But when you are a mindfulness practitioner, you kind of know it, okay, this is not gonna be possible anymore. So you accept your limitation. You accept your physical capacity here and now, and you can suffer, but then there’s freedom because you’ve accepted it. And then you have a new way of being in this moment. And so I think with all of our suffering, whatever arises, it’s like we have to know how to see it, recognize it, be with it, and sometimes have a ceremony for it, like you said. A lot of us monastics, when we do something that is not in accordance with our precept body, there are of course major precepts, like if you break, you’re out, like game over. And then there are many other precepts that are much minor but they are to reflect that you haven’t fully mastered your habits, like you’re still giving into desire or impulses. So depending on the precepts, most of them you would confess to your mentor or to like a brother or a sister that you’re very close to. And then… We always encourage after you confess it, go and touch the earth to the Buddha, the ancestors. And touching the earth is a formal practice that we do. It’s a prostration of our forehead, like touching the earth. Like there’s five parts of our limbs that are grounded on the earth, our two knees, our two hands. We open our palms, our forehead touching the ground. And it’s a submission action. It’s a refuge action. It’s like, it’s a humbling bodily action we do in order to begin anew, to restart again. So a lot of the times when you come to Plum Village, you may see monastics after a session of sitting meditation, touching the earth either collectively or touching the earth as individual practice. And sometimes it is to express gratitude, sometimes it is to let go of something that we’re holding on to. So physical actions can turn into ceremonies that can articulate our honoring of a suffering, honoring of a joy, a gratitude, and then moving forward with it.
01:20:58
Thank you, brother. And I’m reminded of the example Thay gives of someone who is told they have cancer and they have one year to live. And the choice we have, because one choice is to go through every medical intervention and fight against it and try and extend our life by a few months, but actually just suffer. And the other is to accept and to really enjoy. And that sometimes if we let go and as you say, sort of submit and give way to life and accept life, then actually the chances are higher that we’ll get better because actually we allow ourselves to get better whereas if we’re fighting all the time and the fighting comes out of fear and the fear is making the body sick. So sometimes accepting the situation is the condition for it to be better.
01:21:57
Yeah, and I think by accepting your limits or your grieving, it gives you an opportunity to grow. Cause then you go, oh my goodness, this is something that I need to work on. This is something that I can transform. It’s by accepting then you have the realization that, and I can transform this.
01:22:18
So brother, I have one final question and I’m saving… I always save the best to last for you, so put your seatbelt on. How do we know if we are in the present moment? And sorry, there’s another part to that question. And just to, as everything that Zen teaches us, it’s a journey, not a destination. That the present moment and understanding the present moment, getting in touch with it, you know, is an endless journey because we’re never fully in the present moment all the time. We may touch it, but then, you know, the nature of our mind is that we get drawn away from it. But… So just come back, how is it possible to actually know one is in the present moment as opposed to intellectually thinking that? And how do you see that in terms of your life journey without making an assumption about the future? So in the present moment, how would you like to see the present moment develop?
01:23:26
That’s a very interesting question. And it’s going to be hard to articulate, I think.
01:23:31
I know. That’s why I left it till last.
01:23:34
But I think as Zen Master, I can hear Thay saying, when you can feel your breathing and you enjoy your breathing, you’re in the present moment. This is just one example. But for me this is really is it. Like in the present moment I think, sometimes we think of spirituality and we say dwell in the present moment it’s like just to be in blissful moment and we’re like looking for bliss only. And that is not the whole truth of spirituality, you know, and that’s not the whole truth of Buddhism. The present moment allows you to be so alive. It allows you to realign yourself sometimes. Like, today, funny story, it’s so, it’s so simple, but I volunteered to car wash with, today’s a community work day, so I love cleaning. Like there’s a satisfaction of like, and don’t bring your car up there next time, Jo.
01:24:50
You can come and clean our house.
01:24:52
Yeah, but there’s this satisfactory feeling of like, you know, like when something’s messing, you clean it up and you just feel it, ah… So like, there’s so much mud around Plum Village, so a lot of our cars are like full of mud. It’s not always the most presentable, but it is what it is. And today was a day where suddenly 10 people volunteered to clean the car, monks and lay men. And I was at the head of leading it, and I got so frustrated, Jo, like we couldn’t find a pressure washer. I was so angry. I’m like, why would somebody take the pressure water and not return it? This is such a sangha moment. This is like, this always happens. Like the moment you need it, you can’t find it. And you’ve seen it like laying there for a whole year until the day that we all get to wash cars, the pressure washer is gone. And then one of the young novices like, brother, I can’t find the pressure washer. I’m getting so upset. I’m like running around the monastery looking for extension cord for the vacuum cleaners. And then we had so many people, we had 10 people. I’m like, what am I gonna do with 10 people? I don’t know what to do with 10 people. There’s too many people for like, we were doing three vans at once, but they’re big vans. And I caught myself, I caught myself so overwhelmed right now. And in the present moment, I embrace and acknowledge I’m not peaceful right now. I’m an elder to a lot of people here. How do I want to transmit my energy to these nine people I’m working with? So in that moment, I was really alive. I really realigned myself to instructing, listening, hearing people’s suggestions, laughing, because one of the friends was like, we’re so many and we are so disorganized and I just laugh, you know. I was like, you are so right, you know? Like, I wish we could be more organized. And, you know, so beautifully, like just surrendering to the present moment. Everyone wanted to clean the cars and naturally everybody found something to do. People went inside the car, closed their door, so that the pressure washer team can be pressure washing while inside is cleaning the inside. So it was like an organism just organically feeling like I’m a part of this cleaning mission and I’m going to find a nook where it’s dirty and I’m gonna offer my service. If I didn’t have the practice of the present moment there and then I could have just stormed out. Yeah, or I could have just kept being angry.
01:28:00
Yeah, just wound yourself up even more.
01:28:02
Yeah, and I would have just leaked so much energy and thanks to the present moment by accepting my energies now, like I was overwhelmed, I was annoyed even, I was frustrated, like all of these feelings coming as a storm and I know it’s so mundane, like it’s just so like, you know, like it’s nothing, nothing of greatness, but it was so great because I was so human in that moment and the way I was able to catch myself. My role as a practitioner is to take care of my feelings and emotions, and knowing who I am to the community, knowing who I am to myself also, because I know I have the ability to take care of these emotions. And Georgine was sitting in the office, she heard me walking in and out, like I was storming through my office, I was just trying to get things in order. She’s on a Zoom call and said, somebody wants to say hi. And honestly, I was like, in my mind, I ain’t got place to say hi right now. But then I was like, you know what? It’s somebody who values you. It’s so simple just to say hi. And so I went and I said hi. And the person’s like, how are you? And I just say, I’m very emotional right now. And the person’s like, oh, you’re emotional. I’m like, I’m taking care of it. And then I walked out. But that is the present moment, you know. And in this moment, like right now, right here, just feeling the joy to speak to you, Jo, to be in Thay’s hut, to be able to share whatever is alive from this conversation, these questions that are arising in all of us. And this is it, you know, this is it.
01:30:02
And Georgine is doing our sound recording today, and she’s got a very, very big broad smile on her face listening to this. And brother, just lastly, on how you see your, maybe, brother, than making it personal, how do you see your journey in terms of the present moment? Because, you know, Thay described, you know, in an interview I did with him, he said, even if I were to live another 100 years, I would deepen my learning. So there’s no frontier to love. If every day we just improve just a little bit, that’s more than, you know, that’s enough. And I’m just wondering how you see, you know, you’ve been a monk now for 23 years.
01:30:42
23 years.
01:30:43
23 years, so you can see where you’ve come from, you can see where you are in the present moment, and as you, in the present moment, looking out into the future, what is your wish around this about how you would like to develop this practice in yourself?
01:31:02
I don’t want to take for granted what I have. I don’t wanna take for granted the beloved community that is present. We’re not perfect. We make mistakes. We have our shortcomings. But our aspiration is real. Aspiration to touch liberation inside and to be of service to oneself, to the community, to the world. And then one, I think recently, I think I kind of touch the joy of transmission, Jo, meaning… It’s meaning not a Dharma talk, but meaning like just by being a monk I am keeping alive a tradition that is over 2600 years. And I get to transmit through my way of being. And it’s going to be continued through, we all speak, I don’t know why, but we all speak of seven generation, like seven generation down the line. And I think that Plum Village is gonna be here for years and years to come, hundreds of years to come, whether it is in France or not. But I think the tradition will stay alive. And I think that has really been my refuge of what I can contribute. And then I don’t feel so attached to what I can accomplish in this lifetime only. But just by being like this, I’ve touched this freedom and I’ve touched this inner heart service, and I think that’s where I was able to renew myself, like you said, in one of the podcasts at the new years, during the Christmas week, if I remember, like shedding that skin. And this is the year of the snake, right? We came into the year of the snake and the snake can also represent like renewal. Like it’s able to shed its skin. And so I kind of feel that. And I feel that what we’re doing, what I’m doing is worth it. I think that’s real. When I was younger, yeah, especially during my like 18, 19, 20 years, year old as a young man, as a monk, like sometimes I did ask like, is this worth it? I’m like, I could go out there and like seek pleasure and like not care about, you know, I don’t know, hundreds of people that you live with and just be solo out there and just have my own little corner of safety that I can return to… And I think this seed of like, is it enough? It’s very alive in all of us. And Thay has a poem called The Wanderer. The Wanderer will never feel satisfied with the present moment. And Thay said, as a monastic, we have that in us too. And we have to practice with it. We have to ground it in I have arrived, I’m home. And I think speaking now, like, present moment now, like, I really… I really see that it is worth it.
01:34:49
Brother, thank you so much. And I had this image in my mind of you being handed a sacred flame and holding that sacred flame tenderly. And then at some point, you’re passing on that flame as well and you’re part of that river, that river of life and holding something that is very, very precious for us all. And because the community holds it, you create the space in which everyone else can feel it and so just to honor in this moment, in this present moment, as you say, the monastics who hold open the door to a way of seeing that is important for us all. And without you being present would be harder to remember. My life would be much less than if I hadn’t been in the presence of you personally in the monastics of Plum Village, so to honor that sacred flame. Brother, rather than doing a meditation, shall we just maybe just read that little poem again, because it’s quite nice after all this discussion just to come back to just reminding us of what it says.
01:36:14
The Buddha taught do not pursue the past, do not lose yourself in the future. The past is no longer. The future has not yet come. Looking deeply at life as it is in the very here and now, the practitioner dwells in stability and freedom. We must be diligent today to wait till tomorrow is too late. Death comes unexpectedly. How can we bargain with it? The sage calls a person who dwells in mindfulness night and day, the one who knows the better way to live alone.
01:37:05
Thank you, brother, for this deep teaching. And dear listeners, if you enjoyed this podcast, I think there are 83 more, probably 150 hours that you can listen to us, and you can find us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, other platforms, and also our own Plum Village App.
01:37:28
And you can also find all previous guided meditations in the On the Go section of the Plum Village App. And this podcast is co-produced with Global Optimism and the Plum Village App with support from the Thich Nhat Hanh Foundation. And dear friends, if you are inspired, please offer donation to the rebuilding of the nunnery of Lower Hamlet as recently it has been burnt down. And you can visit our donation webpages and select Lower Hamlet where the donation will be allocated. Thank you so much. We want to also thank all of our friends and collaborators: Clay, aka The Podfather, our co-producer; also Kata, our producer; Joe, our audio editing; Georgine, our sound engineer; Anca, our show notes and publishing. Jasmine and Cyndee, our social media guardian angels. And thank you all for listening.
01:38:41
The way out is in.