The Way Out Is In / Thich Nhat Hanh: Zen Master and Simple Monk (Episode #8)

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Hello and welcome to another episode of The Way Out Is In podcast. I’m Jo Confino, working at the intersection of personal transformation and systems change,

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and I am Brother Phap Huu, a zen Buddhist monk in the tradition of Zen Master Thich Nhat Hanh in the Plum Village community.

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The way out is in.

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Today we are going to talk about Zen Master Thich Nhat Hanh as a simple monk, because actually most people think of Thay, as he’s known, as one of the greatest spiritual teachers of the 20th century and the early 21st century. But Brother Phap Huu you were his attendant for 17 years, and I think what would be really lovely is to know the man behind the robes, I suppose, because most people know Thay through his books, hundreds of thousands, millions of copies sold. And also through his Dharma talks, which are online. But very few people know him as just a human being.

00:01:49

Yes, I’ll be really honored to take this opportunity to also share the stories and experience that I’ve had throughout my years with him and seeing him in daily life. And I think this is something that a lot of friends who have heard about our teacher wouldn’t have had the chance to experience. And today, very special, we are sitting in his hut in the Upper Hamlet in Plum Village. And the hut’s name is Sitting Still Hut, and I remembered the first few days as his attendant when I was in the hut, Thay said: To be with Thay you have to know how to sit still. And it’s true to the name of the hut. And as a meditation practitioner, one of our core practices is learning to enjoy sitting meditation. And we have to see that meditation is not labor. But meditation is something that that you can enjoy in daily life, and this is something that Thay, which means teacher in Vietnamese, this is why we call him Thay, even for all of our Western, our Westerner friends who come here, they also call him Thay. This is something that I always sense when I’m around Thay is that he enjoys meditation and he’s able to also transmit this joy by just his presence. And I think this was something that was very remarkable for me.

00:03:35

And Brother Phap Huu, as you say, we’re sitting in Thay’s hut, but for those who are listening, why don’t we just describe it a bit? Because we are looking… He’s got a lovely veranda overlooking the French countryside, so we are on top of a hill. But what strikes me is just how simple it is. You know, it’s just this tiny little hut with a small bedroom / sitting room and a small kitchen. But but just… just describe where we’re sitting.

00:04:04

Yes. So the hut is inside and outside is with wood. And when you come into the hut, you will see a small altar where every morning we will light incense when our teacher wakes up. You will see a small corner of a tea table with a teapot, a tea tray with classic Plum Village tea cups and and then you will see his bed, which is on the ground, on the floor, but it has a wooden, a wooden frame, which is very low. And then he will have his table where he would write and he would translate trust as well as write his books and also write calligraphy. And I think most classic is his bookshelf, which I love, which is bricks stacked on each other to space out. And then a piece of wood, a piece of thick wood and then another few bricks and like that. And I think uniquely in the Upper Hamlet hut, it is surrounded by glass windows so that you can enjoy the view. And every time Thay has a guest, Thay would tell his guests to take a few minutes to enjoy Thay’s TV. And his TV is Mother Nature is the forest is the hills is the… If you’re here in the summertime, you might see fields of sunflowers or fields of wheat. And just being in the hut you can feel very connected to nature because it’s also on the slope. And we’re in the forests, pretty much, an oak forest and it’s very down-to-earth. And I think this is what this is what Thay aim for when he created his hut. It’s something very simple. Simplicity and nothing extra. Everything that’s in the hut is something that he uses and it has a meaning.

00:06:26

And that’s what in a sense want to focus on with you, Phap Huu, is Thay for all his influence, his global influence, he lived the life of a simple monk. And I always remember the Dalai Lama saying he wished he’d just been able to be a simple monk. But actually, he was… he had all these responsibilities. But Thay also had a lot of responsibilities. He’s built a global network of monasteries, and he’s been engaged in so many different ways in the world. But he’s managed to maintain this total simplicity. And, you know, just looking in his room now he’s got his jacket that I remember in all my, I think, 10, 11 years of being here, he wore that jacket all the time and it was not a smart jacket. It was a very basic jacket. And I remember one of the monastics telling me that that they’d bought him a new jacket and suggest he swapped it. And he said: No, you know, this is fine, it’s still working.

00:07:37

Yeah. And you know, I think one of the practices of a monastic is humility and humbleness, and also as a monk, we try to remember that our life is based on simplicity. And in today’s day, consumerism is such addicting energy, I would say, like, we always want more. And to have a product, it kind of also gives you power in a way and is a kind of fulfillment, right? And the one thing that I’ve learned with Thay is that when you have something that works for you and that it fits you, it does its purpose, then you practice I have enough, meaning I don’t need more than one or two of this. And like you have said, you know, Thay has that one jacket you see in this hut here. But I would say he has about two jackets. Like one thick winter one and then one for spring autumn. And those are the only two jackers that he would wear. And as a monk, one of our practices also, when somebody gives us a donation, we also have to accept it because it is a love and it’s a way of appreciation that somebody is showing it. So for them is by giving us something. And if you deny it, you are not willing to accept their kindness. But in a community you can always share. And that’s actually one of our trainings as a monk is also when you offer something and you know you have enough, you learn to share that to the community. And Thay has done that. There were times in my life when Thay saw that in his wardrobe, he had too many under robes or too many sweaters, so he would do like a letting go day and he would tell me to come and to take this bag of clothes and bring it to the monks resident and say dear brothers, if any of you are lacking anything, please see in this bag. If there’s something you would like to keep, and especially this is from Thay. So it’s kind of like also a gift from the teacher. And one of the things that not many people know is that the long robe Thay wore, he only wears two and we rotate those two for years. And many people have wanted to to give Thay new robes and they always said no. He always smiles, and if he can say… if he can tell them I have enough, then he will. And I, just being beside him and through these moments of him expressing that no, Thay has enough garments, please tell them Thay’s appreciation but Thay doesn’t need anymore. And that’s very powerful. And that is like a lesson that I don’t hear in the Dharma Talk, but I get to experience it through his daily life. And humility is something that you have to nourish each day and humbleness, right? You can have the aspiration to be humble, but if you are also not skillful with humbleness, it can also seem like arrogance also. And I think for me, being close to Thay, humility comes through action, and it’s not through what you say, but it’s through how you live. And that’s one of the things that I was always able to touch, be in touch with whenever I’m close to him. One example, as an attendant, we are trained and we are instructed to help do the daily tasks. For example, make tea in the morning, fold the blanket when our teacher wakes up, prepare the meals or wash his dirty clothes. And of course, we are in France, so we have washing machines, and it’s very easy for us to just take dirty clothes and put it in the washing machine. But there was one practice that that Thay always did was that he would wash his own socks. And one day I was a new attendant and I was very eager to be the best. And I wanted to, you know, I think it also… it just comes from my love for Thay and for all he has done for the world and for myself and my family. So one day I was hearing in the restroom, in the Sitting Still Hut, the water turning on for a long time. And then you hear… sounds like, Oh, what is Thay doing? And then I peeked in and I see Thay washing his socks. And I said, Thay, let me do that. You don’t need to do this. You… Because in my mind is like, something as little like this, like, let us do this, so you should save your energy to save the world. And Thay just turned around and he looked at me and he smiled and he said, but Thay enjoys this. And he just continued doing it. And of course, right away, I let go and I didn’t try to persuade him to allow me to do this. And right away what came in my mind at that moment was that this is a daily activity, a kind of chore, daily chore that he’s doing to be reminded of simplicity. Like, this is something that needs to be done, needs to be clean and I can do this, I don’t need to ask anybody else. I’m still a human being. I’m still part of the community. I’m still a man. It is my dirty laundry. I can do it. And that was a moment when I was very humbled and I felt like even somebody with so much influence can still be so simple.

00:14:51

And it’s really interesting because it’s not easy. And the reason I say that is that, you know, we see in history in recent history, you know, so many spiritual teachers who get lost in their fame or start to abuse their influence or feel that all the attention they get means that they’re very special.

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Right.

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And you know, I’ve experienced that in my life. When you’re given a lot of attention or when people are respecting what you say, you know, it’s very easy to say, Ah, oh, I’m very special or I’m important. Aand it’s like, it’s like we create a persona beyond who we are because actually, we don’t feel we’re enough. So actually, we use that sort of those compliments to sort of create this persona that that is more than us and it creates actually a lot of unhappiness and disharmony. But I’m just wondering, beyond the sort of the daily simple practices, how Thay stayed grounded? So what were his practices that allowed him to say, to remain who he is, which was… the power actually he had was in his humility.

00:16:06

The community was a great source of life for Thay, and that helped him be reminded of his aspiration. And I think a lot of the times we may get lost in our fame is because we lose our Beginner’s Mind or like our simple aspiration from the beginning, and then we go astray. I think we keep aiming for more and more and more. And I think that’s when you kind of lose yourself. And for Thay, he shared with us on multiple times that his simple dream as a young monk when he was growing up was to have a community where there’s freedom, where we can create the practice, the meditations that we can generate each day to nourish our own spiritual path and to nourish the aspiration. And I think we have to understand that our teacher was growing up during the war. So there was a lot of destruction and there was a lot of suffering. So a simple dream like that, I think during that time was… Maybe it seemed far-fetched. When can that happen? But we, I like to say, like within the mud, the lotus was born, which was like from the war and from his engaged Buddhist action calling for peace, our teacher was exiled from Vietnam. And after being exiled, he realized that, wow, now I have to create my community, my new community in the West. And fortunately, Thay never lost his aspiration and lost his hope. And for him to be grounded was… number one is the practice. And the practice, when I say practice, it means meditation practice. And meditation doesn’t mean sitting like a statue, looking at the wall and not moving, you know? But meditation is having the capacity to really be in the present moment to connect to oneself and connect to others. And what gave Thay a lot of joy and happiness is communities. It’s his students, it’s the friends that come to Plum Village through the retreats. And whenever Thay hears stories that thanks to the teachings and the practices that he has been able to share has transformed people’s life.. A simple transformation, like somebody who has realized that whenever they are angry at their father, they’re angry at themselves. So those kind of transformations are his spiritual nutriments, his spiritual food. And being able to see impact already on a simple level just… And you don’t even need to be famous. You know, you’re just an ordinary person who comes here from England or America, or even from France or Vietnam, etc. And you come and you can taste the joy of meditation and you share that to Thay. He feels his life has a purpose, and his message is being able to help transform people’s life. That helps him be grounded. And he knows that that’s all he has to do. He doesn’t need to aim for anything higher than that.

00:19:58

And one of… Something, you know, I’ve been very aware of is he’s never tried to make Buddhism esoteric or the teachings esoteric. There are so many teachers in the world who almost try to mystify the message because actually, it makes it like, I can tell you what to do, but you have to work really, really hard or years in order to understand, in order to practice. You have to reach a certain level for it to be of value. And yet Thay’s strength for me is he’s done the exact opposite. He’s saying that actually, you can get the benefits of the practice right now. And also the simplicity of the practice. I remember when I interviewed him once I was saying, you know, Thay, you know, there’s so much, so many problems and crises in the world, you know, how do you cope with this? And he said the most important thing is to learn, to do one or two things really, really well and then let other people think about what they need to do. And he said, what I’ve learned to do is I’ve learned to sit and to walk. And I thought, well, what does that mean? Because, you know, Thay, you’ve created all these monasteries, all this influence. You’ve written more than 100 books, you go to politicians, you’ll give talks to business leaders, you have so much. And then I thought about, it is because actually, it’s because of the basic practice. I mean, his… Everything he’s created couldn’t have been created if he didn’t have this very simple practice. So can you just give us a sort of flavor of Thay’s view around, you know, making his teachings, you know, really accessible rather than mystifying it?

00:21:53

That’s a very good question, because I’m trying to like, how do you put this into words, right? I am reminded of my first time to Plum Village in 1996. I grew up in a Buddhist family in Toronto, in Canada, and I only knew the temple as a place that you go to worship and you kind of you ask the Buddha for forgiveness if you’d done something wrong or you ask the Buddha to bless you to pass the tests or something like that. And that’s the kind of Buddhism that I knew that I was growing up with. And then when I came to Plum Village, the first impression I had was seeing a young monk come to me and bow to me. And through his brow, I felt his true presence. And that was very impactful because I was only nine years old at that time, so understanding the Dharma was probably beyond me. But what I can feel was very alive. And I think Thay, the way he explained the teachings is to make it into daily life activities. That he tells us like, you know, in Buddhism, we have to learn to identify the simple joys in our life and the simple happiness. We may think that happiness is something very far away, something that we have to work hard in order to achieve. But if you touch the present moment and you are really in touch with what you have right here right now, are you sure that there’s not enough conditions for you to be happy? And then that’s the theory right now, right? That’s the teaching. But then once you practice it, something happens, something changes in you. And I think I felt that when I saw the monks and then when I saw Thay and I saw the nuns in Plum Village, because I felt they were all able to… maybe not everyone was enlightened, not everybody was like advanced practitioners or so and so. We would like to idolise monastics because I can still see brothers getting frustrated and nuns being rushed because of the service they had to do for the retreats because there are so many people. But what I felt through them was the simple joy and simple happiness that they were able to express through their smiles, through their ways of walking, speaking, et cetera. And I would like to say the way that Thay made the teachings so simple is because he showed it just by the way he walked, by the way he was there with us. And that is, I would say, is the core of spirituality, which is how to be present. If you speak about suffering, you speak about enlightenment, and you speak about all of this teaching of the Buddha, but you are unable to be present, then what are you transmitting? And so I think for Thay, one of his aspirations as a young monk when he was growing up was that he saw that the teachings of the temple were slowly fading away and not having a connection to society and to especially the younger generation. When the younger generations start to see that they can connect to the teachings and means that is being outdated and you’ve got to, you got to renew it. And so Thay wanted to just bring like a new flavor, a new language to the way we practice and to make it more simple. And I think one of the special things you will hear in Thay’s Dharma Talk is that whatever he’s teaching, you’re like, Oh, I can actually do it right here, right now. I don’t need to be in a temple to do it. I don’t need to be in a retreat to practice it. I can actually be still, be in touch with my breath, connect to my body, and suddenly I am in touch with mindfulness. And so Thay’s way of renewing Buddhism is to make the teachings of the Buddha and the teachings of mindfulness into everyday life. And it’s not something that you seek for after 10 years or 20 years of practice, then you say, I got it, but you can say I got it in this very moment.

00:26:48

And a lot of his teaching is using very, very simple metaphors. I mean, you know, what I found most effective is, in a sense, when he talks about nature. He talks about, you know, seeing that a cloud never dies, so rather than trying to help people to understand there’s no birth or death in a human being, it’s easier to see the life cycle of a cloud, sort of the hot air, rising, forming a cloud and rain. And then he does his beautiful calligraphy… Is like, you know, the rain is in my tea. And then he talks about, you know, flowers. And I remember writing an article for The Guardian about this, saying that it would be very easy in one sense to misconstrue Thay as naive because it’s almost so simple. But what I’ve recognized is actually it’s deeply profound, and the only reason it’s profound is because Thay has gone into the very depth of the complexity of the Buddha. It’s not Buddhist teachings, it’s not like he’s skirting around the edge or he’s just on the surface. Like, it’s only when you go very deep into something that you can make it simple. And I always remember my wife, Paz, when we were in Spain, we went to the Miro exhibition. And Miro was a fantastic realist painter, so his early paintings were absolutely… almost like photographs. And then you had this breakthrough, and he would represent a human being just as a line. And he could only represent it as a line because he had really become a fantastic realist painter. But that line had a deep resonance. And if someone came along and just drew that line and copied it, it wouldn’t hold the same energy. It might look the same, but actually, you would know it was not the same. So there’s something about Thay’s teachings that that because he, in a sense, went deep into the teachings that he was able to, in a sense, to pull out its essence.

00:28:57

Yeah. And I think, well, I also want to say I totally agree with you. His teachings, even though it may seem very simple, like breathe and smile, and some people have perceptions like that’s all we do in Plum Village: Breathe and smile, breathe and smile, that’s our answer to everything. And then, you know, I’m going to be honest, sometimes I get really offended when I hear people criticize us or like, say, Oh, that’s all we do. But then I ask myself, Yeah, could you breathe and smile in the midst of the storm and really be calm to know what to do and what not to do to have clarity? That’s when you really have to practice the dharma, that’s when you have to take the intellectual knowledge that you’ve gain and then apply it into today’s life. And there is nothing more profound than the basic practice than the capacity to touch interbeing when you’re in a storm, in the midst of anger, at being angry at somebody else. And then suddenly you realize that you are discriminating against that person, you are trying to punish that person. But if you can be in touch with the nature of emptiness, meaning that that person is more than just that action right there and see beyond that action, then you have a chance, you have a chance to heal, you have a chance to connect deeper, you have a chance to resolve the conflict without creating more conflict. And you need the basic practice in order to have that kind of clarity, to touch non-self, to touch interbeing, to touch non-fear and nondiscrimination. Right? Or else is all just beautiful notions that we can talk about and explain for hours and hours. But if you cannot do that in daily life, then I don’t feel like you have yet had the fruit of meditation. And that is something that Thay has been always able to show whenever there are difficulties in the community. He’s always able to show the community stability. And I think that a power of a spiritual teacher is to not be rocked by the storm that comes in order to remind everybody to be calm, be still. And let’s not overreact to see things more clearly. And you need leaders like that to have that impact on the multitude of people in the community. And another element of Thay is he’s a a community builder. Being a teacher I think it’s easier than being a community builder because you can be a teacher and have students, but not be involved in their everyday life. But Thay was very involved with his community because Thay realized that to have a true continuation, he needed to have students and not just… I think at the beginning he had more students than monastic students. I think he’s one of the famous Zen teachers that had student at a much later, later age. And he realized that to have a true continuation, he needs students who will devote their whole life towards the path and a spiritual engagement but in his tradition. And when he started to have hundreds of monastic students, what always amazed me was how he remembered all of his students names when even I can’t remember all of the brothers and sisters names. Sometimes I feel so ashamed of myself. But he has an incredible memory is number one. And number two is he is so connected to the community. And of course he cannot be everywhere in the community’s life, right? Because like, just in Plum Village we have three hamlets: New Hamlet, Lower Hamlet for the sisters community, and we have Upper Hamlet and then a second branch of the resident is Son Ha. And it’s a large community. Right now in Plum Village, France we have almost around 200 monastics, and even during the time that Thay was still healthy, we always had around 200 monastics and it was very… Everyone always was very curious. Like, how does Thay know how everything is happening in the community? And it’s, of course, because Thay has a lot of students that he’s also connected to, and he’s always curious of what is going on in the community. But his curiosity is not the curiosity to look for the faults of his students in order to like to like scold them or anything, but is to understand his student so that he can teach his student more and teach in a way that they can understand, and that they can have breakthroughs in their practice and overcome their difficulties. And Thay is a very sensitive person. I think Thay even said this in dharma talks, like, publicly. And this is very true, because I’m very close to Thay. There was… Whenever one of his students sufferers, he suffers. And whenever one of his students has success in their practice, I can see him glowing with joy. And one of the things that he always asked us, his students, to do is to write him letters. Of course, he doesn’t have enough time to see all 200 students every day. But he nevertheless Thay… Never, never miscommunication with Thay. Always tried to create that link to Thay and letters is one of the ways that you can connect to Thay, so that Thay can understand you more. And Thay reads all the letters that are given to him. And one of my job as his attendant is to make sure that that letter gets to him. And I never read the letters. So any brothers and sisters listening to this podcast, I never peek into the letters. And it’s almost… It’s so sacred that, as an attendant, I just feel like this is so important that I need to offer this to Thay. And sometimes some of the letters are so nourishing to Thay that he would give it to me. It’s like, Phap Huu, read this and see one of the transformation of one of the members of the community and to share that joy also. And when someone suffers, he does try to find a way to support them. And because we’re in Thay’s hut, so I want to share one of the first zen moments I had with Thay… my first zen story. Right? So in every hamlet in Plum Village, Thay has a hut or a room that is dedicated to him. And he would spend days, hours or months or years there so that that building or that room has his energy and it becomes a sacred place for the community. And then whenever Thay is not there and you feel you want to connect with Thay, you can come into the hut or the room and just sit there to be in touch with his presence. And I think in the zen spirit or in the Plum Village tradition, because Thay is the founder of our tradition, we always learn to see that Thay is present with every activity we do. That’s why when we start something, we always say dear Thay, dear brothers and sisters, so that we know that his presence… we would act more mindfully when he’s there. So those huts and those rooms that are in the monasteries are to remind the community that even though Thay’s form is not here, but his spirit is always here, his continuation is very alive. So first year of attending Thay. Whenever Thay has guests, most of the time he would greet them in Upper Hamlet. And this is before the cell phone day, so we will receive a phone call from Sister Chan Khong would say and tell the brothers Thay is coming to the hamlet, so prepare the hut. And what does that mean? That means we have to make sure the water is boiled, tea is ready. And when Thay arrives be at the gate of the hut, open the door when Thay comes out and walk with Thay into the hut and know the agenda. So that particular day, Thay was meeting up with a sister that just came back from Deer Park Monastery. And my job as an attendant, the first thing I have to do is when Thay and his guests, even if it’s his students. The guest comes in, I have to prepare tea. And so we all came into the hut. We’re all sitting in the corner. Thay and the sister is waiting for the tea. And I have so much pressure. It’s like, I want to make this perfect cup of tea and be praised for it, you know? So I’m making this cup of tea and I pass one cup to Thay. Our mindful manners, first you pass… offer a cup to the teacher and then you offer the cup to the guests. But Thay said when passing the cup of tea, Thay said, let Thay do it. And in my head, I was like, I must have done something wrong because even a simple action as giving his guests a cup of tea, he’s not letting me do it. So I humbly just sat there looking at Thay. And as he was passing his cup, the cup of tea to the sister, which is the guest, he accidentally spilled his cup of tea on the floor. So I ran to the kitchen where we’re sitting right now, the dining hall, and I grabbed a towel and I was about to wipe the spilled tea, and Thay said: Let Thay do it. And once again, in my mind, I’m like, This is my last day as Thay’s attendant. Even cleaning up the mess, he’s not letting me do it. And of course, Thay said, let Thay do it, so I give Thay the towel. And as Thay was cleaning the spilled tea, Thay started to say a few words. And Thay said: Thay was the one that spilled the cup of tea. It is Thay’s action, so Thay has to clean up Thay’s own mess. Thay doesn’t need someone else to do it. And suddenly it clicked in me that he was teaching the sister that was there. So I heard, I only heard that she was coming back because she was going through a hard time and she needed a new environment and to be closer to the larger community, which is Plum Village. And I don’t know the whole story of what my dear sister, what kind of suffering she was going through, but I know she was coming back for support. And so suddenly, at that moment, Thay orchestrated that whole situation so that Thay can share that teaching. And Thay said that every time… in our daily life, it is OK to make mistakes. But we have to stand up and we have to clean our mistakes to continue, to move forward. I will never forget that lesson. And I was so happy I was able to witness that. And that moment of Thay teaching that sister, that is a very human moment, that’s a very human teacher and student relationship, you know? And of course, I felt the sister… I saw the sister’s eyes glow and I saw her receiving the teachings right away.

00:42:47

Brother, I’m really interested because a lot of people, as I said, know Thay in a sense, very one- dimensionally. And one of the things I hear a lot is… Because Thay talks a lot about compassion and about love, and so it’s very easy to think of that all as very soft and nice. But also, I’ve heard many stories about Thay’s fierceness, that compassion is sometimes very fierce. And I would be really interested to know that aspect of Thay because most people will never have seen it, experienced it, come across it. Tell us about what it was like to be in the center of Thay’s fierceness. What was his fierceness? In what ways was he fierce? When did he show it? Give us a flavor.

00:43:34

OK. Yes. So as a teacher, Thay usually tells us that he has to have the ability to have the pulse of the community to know what are our strengths and what are our weaknesses and able to point out our weaknesses. So I think one of his fierce compassion is being able to point out very clearly our weaknesses, but doing it from a space of not putting us down and not like making us inferior, but showing us that we have to improve, we have to do better in order to be able to be a refuge, in order to become a more stable practitioner. And one of, I think, coming back to the question, what are the things that keep him solid? It’s that he’s also very disciplined and he is someone who has a schedule that maintains his energy throughout the day. Like, for example, in Plum Village, the community has a schedule, has a schedule that helps guide the whole community how to live harmoniously together and how to practice and work together to support the community. But for a teacher like Thay, he follows, I would say, almost 60 percent of the schedule, meaning that he joins with us in the sitting meditations in the morning. He joins the lunch with us and in the afternoon or evening, depending if we’re sitting in the afternoon or evening, he would also join. But then he has his other times where he has to put energy in writing books or contemplating a little bit more, having space to contemplate in order to give the appropriate teachings, etc.. And one of the things that I think we’re continuing trying to transform is our laziness. And Thay is someone who is like, like you said, like whatever you do, if you can do it with 100 percent, then that’s the best you can do. And I feel Thay’s always doing everything at 100 percent, and that is what is intimidating. For example, in the zen tradition, time is very important, like how we manage time. And we’re not supposed to be late for dharma talks or for sitting meditation, for walking meditation. In our activities in the monastery, we always have an activity bell that everyone can hear in the monastery and is always invited 15 minutes before the activity. Thay was never late. There was never a time that I was with Thay that we were late. And just that in itself is a kind of stability and almost fierceness. And because he is always on time, always so present, you feel the energy of mindfulness so alive. In Eastern medicine we have this thing called spooning, spooning the body to remove… we call it removing the wind. So sometimes your body’s aching so much and you feel you have a cold and it feels like your body’s very stiff and very tired. And so what you need to do is you have a kind of oil and you would heat up the body through that oil, a gentle massage, and then you use a kind of spoon. And it kind of hurts, but it’s a healthy kind of pain. So from time to time that Thay would see that there are some things that the community needs to be reminded. For example, the communities coming late for activities. Thay would say, Phap Huu, for the dharma talk, please put the spooning massage spoon on the podium, so Thay remembers to spoon the community, to remind the community. And of course, you know, whenever Thay does it, though, it’s very gentle and is in a way that is also very respectful. But because the intention is there and the way he does it, everybody receives it with real… is a direction, it’s a guidance. And we all take it in very well. And yes, as a teacher, Thay knows that some students, because of their past experience, and some might have bad history with their parents, so when they see Thay, they see him like a father or a mother. And depending on that experience, they would copy and paste that experience on Thay. So Thay is very aware of this, and he’s very attentive to this. So his way of teaching students individually is also very different, and this is where the skill of a teacher comes in, and this is through experience. And there are some students that you have to use sweetness to help them. You have to share very gently how they can improve, show them the blind spot, but very tenderly. And there’s some students you got to give it straight. The more you’re sweet with them, the more they don’t get it. And it’s almost like the zen stick, you got to give a pow… You got to say, Hey, stop slacking off, you know. And Thay was very, very straightforward when the time comes, when he needs to do it, when he needs to shine the light on us so that we can see our blind spot. He will say what he needs to say, but the energy is wanting us to improve and wanting us to see the blind spot. And it can hurt a little bit, but from that we’re able to recognize and see our suffering and work with it, and then we can have a chance to grow. And I think as a teacher, as a mindfulness practitioner, you know, you have to have this kind of awareness and this compassion. Yes, it can be very gentle but at the same time it can be very straightforward and very fierce in a way. But it all comes from understanding that’s what is important or else you’re just abusing your power.

00:50:37

Yeah. One of the things Thay talks often about is the fact that the Buddha was not a god, but a human being. And I think by teaching that what he’s really saying is that actually anyone can be like the Buddha. It’s not like the Buddha was a god, everyone has the opportunity to transform. But also that everyone has his weaknesses and he talks a lot about the fact that the Buddha when he was enlightened, he didn’t just stop and stay enlightened, he needed to practice and needed to keep on working on his stuff. So I’m just wondering, it’s easy to mythologized Thay, as you know, Thay is also, you know, the perfect practitioner, the person who never got angry, you know, it’s easy to mythologized Thay in the same way that he suggests we don’t do with the Buddha. So one of Thay’s, for instance, his most famous book is Anger. Did Thay get angry? So what did you see Thay working on that he needed to continue practicing?

00:51:46

I’ve seen Thay upset. I’ve seen also moments when Thay was sad, especially when one of his monastic students leaves the community and disrobe. And there was a time when many of my brothers, monastic brothers, were leaving the community, and it was like a shock in the Sangha to know that all of these brothers and sisters who have devoted their life and their career to our community and to the path. And yes, I saw a lot of joy in their practice, but of course, everybody has suffering. But to take the step to walk out of the monastic life it’s always painful because we’ve been together for so long and we’re so connected. It’s kind of like the image that helped me understand this hurt was like, we’re all trees in a forest, and all of our roots are in the soil, and at one point is all connected. And when a tree leaves the forest, is plucked out, or they pluck themselves out… it’s connected to our roots, of course it hurts. And I’ve seen Thay try to… Sometimes Thay would ask me: Why do you think they left? Is it Thay? Is it the Sangha? Is this something that we were unable to do? And I think just in those moments, you just see the human side and knowing that even a zen master can’t solve everything. And even sometimes you have seen, you have seen the way out knowing that you know that if you keep, if you can just be patient with yourself and maintain the practice and stick a little bit longer, you can overcome this. But to also accept these moments where you’re not, you don’t have the power to change that. And I’ve seen this. Especially as an attendant, I have to inform Thay who he’s meeting and what the meeting is about. And for example, I come in to Thay and I said, Thay, this brother would like to see Thay and would like to disrobe. So he would like to come and say good bye. And, you know, a teacher can say, OK, wonderful, let him come in, great, he’s leaving. No, it’s painful. And I’ve seen sadness in Thay’s face and in Thay’s body, his energy. And I think at those moments, you just practice accepting the reality. Not everything is in your control. And I think even with such an influence, you know that you can’t control everything. And moments like that is when I see his very human side, his connection to his student, his connection to his community. And I want to share this one story, but before that, I just want to say that, and whoever comes and shares that they want to leave or so, of course, deep down inside, Thay knows the reality that they have to leave or there’s nothing more Thay can do. But as a teacher, you still want to try one more time, you still want to say, you know, shine the light one more time. Are you sure? Are you sure you want to leave? And then always say that, but you can always come back. And that kind of grace that Thay always offer them… if there is a moment that you meet difficulty, you know, the community is still your spiritual home. Like, don’t lose this refuge. Even though that now you take a new form, please still know that we are in you and you’re in us, because that’s the reality. And I think this is from the teacher’s love and coping with the reality of the community is also a practice and learning to accept it. And there was one time there was a student, a sister in the community, who was going through a really tough time in the monastic path. And I just want to say monastic path is not easy. You might think that we just sit and stare at the wall all day. It’s not as simple as that is, you know, walking the path of peace and stability and enlightenment. There’s a lot of challenges that we meet and everybody has a different story and everybody has a different path and therefore also their conditions that they encounter are very different. But this one particular sister was going through a really tough time, and I was very close to her, actually, so I was a very close friend of her. And at one point I saw Thay kept meeting with her to try to encourage, try to support, to guide her. And I was getting frustrated because I felt like Thay was giving so much energy and she wasn’t making so much progress. And one day I asked Thay. I’m like, Thay, why don’t you just let go? Because in my eye, I was like, there’s no hope. And Thay looked at me and Thay said: You’re not a teacher yet, so you don’t understand the feeling of a teacher to a student. So one day when you become a teacher and you have those who take refuge in you, you will see the connection very differently. And at that moment, I was able to be in touch with Thay’s immense love that he has been able to cultivate through the years and through having so many students. And we like to be around people who are very happy, very joyful because they give us so much energy and it’s very easy to push away someone who’s suffering. And for me, I was pushing away someone who is suffering. But for Thay who has more stability, I was able to see Thay’s deep compassion, that if there’s still an opportunity to help, Thay would do it. Thay will help and Thay will not give up. Wow. And to this day, that’s something that I still want to cultivate in myself. And now I don’t have students, but I have a lot of younger brothers and sisters in the community, and sometimes I feel so fed up. I’m reminded of that moment of like just, yeah, you don’t want to regret anything, you want to do everything in your capacity. And I think I just want to say because I came in, I came in in 2002 where the community was a little bit more developed. And because you asked, have you ever seen Thay angry? I haven’t. Thay has never, like, act on his anger. I have seen him upset, which probably can turn towards anger. But he knows how to practice with that. And there was a time in our community when our monastery in Vietnam was meeting difficulty and we were, the brothers and sisters in Prajna Monastery was being evicted out of the monastery and we were powerless in Plum Village. And Thay, as a teacher, knowing that his four hundred students in Vietnam is being kicked out of their home, Thay had to practice a lot during that time, embracing his emotions, channeling his love, channeling his peace and his encouragement to his students in Asia. And I remember days when I would see Thay practice walking meditation for a much longer length than normal. And I know that Thay is practicing to not lose… This is just my perception, so just not be lost in anger, in fear or in this feeling, maybe of despair, but to have clarity in order to know what to do now because this is happening. And those moments were… At those moments, I really felt that Thay and the community was really one. And we had practices together that we would even say today, our peace walk is dedicated to all of our brothers and sisters who are struggling in Vietnam. Our sitting meditation will also be offered to the ones who are making it difficult for us. You have to embrace both sides. And at those moments you can see that Thay was also taking refuge in the community. And Thay has a very large body of students and of supports. And one of the things that he was really good at was delegating work and to know that by himself, he cannot do everything. But by empowering others to also offer their support was also their way of connecting to Thay. So like, don’t ask specific time, that we had brothers and sisters who would communicate to the embassies to ask for support and we would even do walking peace march in order to just bring awareness to what is happening. This was like in 2008, 2009. And as a community, not to lose ourself also in despair, but to know that we have to also have clarity and right now they are taking refuge in us. So we have to be solid in a way to offer our support to them. And now, you know, that now all of them are in Thailand. And then at one point, we sponsored a lot of our brothers and sisters to France, to Germany, to our U.S. centers, et cetera. And during those times, Thay wrote a lot of letters, a lot of letters to his students. And I think this is… I wish something we would do more in today’s world, in today’s society, is to express our love for each other and encourage each other to continue to nourish our courage, our compassion and to see that our nonviolent action, because that’s what our brothers and sisters were doing, they were very nonviolent. And whatever was being thrown at them, they were still sitting as a community, peaceful, not reacting angrily. And to highlight those moments and to let them know that those action is the continuation of Thay, is the continuation of our spiritual lineage.